Board Thread:Suggestions forum/@comment-28970036-20170322185352/@comment-26172435-20170323101901

Thanks for this post, but I must point out there have been many more discussions on the origins and TA state of Dorwinion before. Sadly we don't excel in keeping record of all valuable discussion threads. The suggestions aren't very concrete but I hope I can help a bit regarding most or all of the subjects you touch upon by adding my take on Dorwinion history.

First, let's look at the origins: High King Ithilion wrote: 72.49.129.100 wrote: High King Ithilion wrote: We stil have no reason to believe Dorwinion is ancient...

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lome) 20:11, March 22, 2017 (UTC) According to Tolkien Gateway, it was mentioned in The Lay of the Children of Húrin. If it existed at that time, it certainly would be one of the oldest surviving kingdoms of Elves. I'm not sure that the two are in fact the same place.

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lome) 21:13, March 22, 2017 (UTC) So the Dorwinion mentioned by Thingol in the Silmarillion may appear to be not the same as the Dorwinion mentioned in The Hobbit, but nonetheless, they may acctually very well have been referring to the same realm/nation as far as I can tell. As I started a new game on hARDA, after I got intrigued by Dorwinion when doing searches for the FA and SA server, I have recently dug more into its lore. Here's two lore expert views I felt very much worth considering:

Was Dorwinion an elf kingdom?

The mysterious King Bladorthin

Based on these, and a few other sources, here's my take on 'Dorwinion':


 * The part north-east of the Mouth of Celduin existed before the Second Age and the rest didn't, as shown in these maps of first and second age.


 * I imagine the original part could already have been the ancient Dorwinion referred to by Thingol, a land of wine 'gwin' with low rolling hills facing the great southern inland Sea of Helcar. The hill slopes would have provided ideal circumstances for grapes and fruit trees to grow. That land could well have been inhabited by elves of Nandorin and Avari of whatever exact tribe (most mention 'Penni', which lingusitically could indeed have been the case). And those elves could have started vinticulture, in line with the Silmarillion reference and despite contradicting Ambarkanta lore that suggests vinticulture was brought by the Númenoreans.
 * I propose to call that part of Dorwinion, old Dorwinion: Gwinwaith Iaur. Alternatively 'Mirowaith Iaur' may also be fitting.
 * The Gwinwaith Iaur, east of Celduin, would thus have a different geological and soil composition than the rest of Dorwinion, south of Celduin, which is called 'young land' as it's derived from 'gwain' instead of 'gwin'. Therefore I'd suggest to create separate biomes for both parts. Keep the Dorwinion biome for the southern part and create a new one, without the chalk and chalk-loving flora, for the northern part. Because of the chalk rich soil of young Dorwinion, grapes even grew better there than on the old slopes of old Dorwinion.
 * During the first age, proto-Bëorian men of the house of Hador had settled in the low hills south-west of Dorwinion, south of the Celduin, on the western shores of the Sea of Helcar, at the edges of what would become the Emyn Winion in the second age. Those men would forge and maintain close bonds with the elves of Dorwinion and after the cataclysmic event that ended the first age, these peoples may have forged a bond that would last ages. I imagine an elf or man, possibly the first ruler of the Bladorthin, would have played a key role in forging their bond as the new Dorwinion land ('Blath' - 'dor') was laid open and the children of that land, of both elven and hadorian origin, the 'Blathdorhin', would populate it. From that era on, the ruler of new Dorwinion would become the 'King of Bladorthin'. The old Dorwinion lands would still be populated by mainly elves, but the new Dorwinion would be a land of men and elves, with men predominantly present in the Emyn Winion.
 * Vinticulture and/or winemaking may have been improved significantly by the Númenoreans who visited these lands. This would be conceivable in many different ways, as can be judged from the earthly development of vinticulture throughout the millenia.
 * For safeguarding their heritage, the Blathdorhin or Bladorthin, would have been eager to forge a bond, even an alliance with, or a position of vassalage to, those tall men from Westernesse.
 * During the second age both the Emyn Winion and the Gwinwaith Iaur would have been areas where the people of the plains would retreat to in case of invasions by easterlings. I therefore believe those biomes should have stongholds / watchforts of any kind. The men in the Emyn Winion and the elves in the Gwinwaith Iaur would not depend on mounts, but would support standing armies and the Vintner Guard would have been the main force guarding the plains of new Dorwinion. Because of the predominant military stratgey of the Bladorthin rulers their military tactics would ensure that the Vintner Guard was flexible and agile: I assume this to be a light cavalry based force! There would have been light forts / homestead / stables spread across the Dorwinion plains.
 * I agree with the notion of Bladorthin spears not being javelins but (relatively short) longspears, fit for use on horseback and for infantry units in a rolling hill environment. It would make no sense that spears of said special craft would be for use as disposable projectile only. Both for countering roving bands of mounted bandits and hordes of horse-dwelling easterlings, the development of a light, easy to handle spear that could both be used for stabbing and slashing (so, basically a short sword on a stick, that would both work for infantry and cavalry), would have made sense.
 * Finally, thorughout the ages, a small clan of (Penni) Avari elves would have still been present in the later Eryn Caran. Note that the Eryn Caran only formed after the end of the First Age. The new geographical conditions in that area may explain the formation of that epic forest. The formation of the mixed nation of the Blathdorhin, may explain why some Avari chose to separate them from their kin in the GwinWaith Iaur and retreat into those new woodlands.