Board Thread:Suggestions forum/@comment-32918765-20171030193812/@comment-33185350-20171103182100

High King Ithilion wrote: Sir Lazuli wrote:

High King Ithilion wrote:

Sir Lazuli wrote: Selective breeding is not evolution. Take dogs for example. While there are a wide variety of breeds, we have not evolved dogs into a higher form of life over all the thousands of years we have selectively bred them. The chance of mutations actually adding good information to a creature’s genome is astronomically small. The result of selective breeding is that we have creatures which, while having a particular exaggerated characteristic they were bred for, are actually less capable of survival on their own than before the breeding. This is why specific breeds of dogs often have numerous health problems, while mutts are healthier.

But this discussion really doesn’t matter. We can argue about whether selective breeding is evolution or not, but the fact is there is no such thing as evolution in Arda. Tolkien’s legendarium explicitly states that living things were created by the Valar / Ainur. Living things can be corrupted by evil things, but they do not evolve into a higher form of life. We do see examples of adaptation like the cave fish (or a sort of magically enhanced adaptation in the case of Gollum) but there’s no evolution. So whether or not selective breeding is evolution in the real world, it definitely isn’t in Tolkien’s world.

What are hobbits, then? They are not mentioned in the Ainulindale, and are said to have "first appeared" in the Vale of Anduin. They must have been some form of evolved subspecies from the Men in the region.

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lómë) Plus is there anywhere that states explicitly that the hobbits were not created by Illúvatar?

Hm, apparently not. However, I'd say that this quote is strongly in favor of a form of evolution:

"Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. "

They seem to have divided, not begun divided like the Elves,0 into these separate genetic groups.

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lómë) That’s reasonable. I would call it adaptation, though, not evolution. Just like men divided into Easterlings and Northmen and all other races. The same goes for people in the real world. There are different races based on genetic variation. This type of adaptation just brings out certain traits already present in the genome. There are plenty of examples of adaptation in Tolkien’s work.