Thread:Barangolo/@comment-29773086-20180202195427/@comment-29773086-20180205183545

Barangolo wrote: Thindithron the Great wrote: In regards to your points on the feasibility of a mithril sword- I am not knowledgeable enough to dispute them.

However: Elves could not make mithril swords, unless the Dwarves had already "treated" the metal for them.

''It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim. ''

The uses that Elves had for mithril, in its usual form, fall into the earlier category: beating it like copper, polishing it like glass, and generally using it for decoration- as with ithildin. The Dwarves were the only ones who could actually make it "light and yet harder than tempered steel". So, unless the Dwarves gave amounts of- let's call it "upgraded" mithril- to the Elves, which I deem unlikely, Elves were limited to the basic metal. Of course, the Dwarves did give items made of the upgraded mithril to the Elves- Bilbo’s mail shirt was going to be one such- but there are no indications that the Elves knew enough of its creation to reforge it into weapons. Besides, the Elves already could create weapons that could last for millenia, like the swords of Gondolin. It would seem an exercise in pointlessness to make a mithril sword, from the most valuable material in the world, when a steel one would serve.

Perhaps, say, the Dwarves could have made weapons out of mithril (they would be the only ones who could do so). Where, then, are these weapons? Surely, if Tolkien had imagined that the Dwarves woild create them, they would have logically featured or been mentioned in his works- an ancient weapon could have been mithril, like Durin's Axe. So, the Dwarves did not make them- and regardless of whether they did make them, Men cannot because the skill is far beyond them. So they shouldn't exist in the mod.

You have some interesting points there, I must say I enjoy this discussion, since it shows me different aspects that can be considered, a topic with depth :).

I think the way a material is used is usually more a cultural matter than the skill required: since dwarves were hardly the scholars of that world, they were much less interested in its use for carvings, even though of course they enjoyed or used the final product. They were more interested in the use in armour and weapons, the forging of which they were unmatched in, though Tolien states that "In the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor ", which makes me conclude that Elven crafts that related to the process of smithing must have been almost as good as that of the Dwarves, otherwise the sentence would not have been "even by".

Your point on the dwarves preparing the base material for the end product is spot on however, I cannot argue with this sentence, indeed they were the supplier of the forgeable mithril. However, this does not exclude the possibility that in the final phase of making the actual weapons, it was exclusive to the Dwarves to prepare the weapons: they may have prepared the metal, but the final forming could have been done by the Elves as well, production of weapons goes through some steps and it is unclear which steps Tolkien meant. Since some of the most special blades were made by Elves (Anduril a prime example), I would assume the Elves were not relying on Dwarves anymore during the Third Age in crafting, they caught up with their earlier lack of skill. Mining is a different matter alltogether of course and clearly the preparation of the base material (in ingots?..) as well. I think based on this, both races were quite capable of making the best weapons (as end product), be it from mithril or other metals. Armour is a different matter, as indeed the Dwarves were unmatched in that, though again that does not exclude the possibility that Elves still could forge mithril armour as well (even when inferior quality compared to Dwarves).

The other point, relating to the existense of mithril weapons: even if only Dwarves would have been able to forge, mold and “weaponize” the metal, this does not exclude them actually using it in making these weapons. Possible rationales and answers to your question why theses were not specifically mentioned: scarcity and priorities. Scarcity being the fact that mithril was so rare, that even the weapons prepared from mithril must have been quite rare, mention of Durin’s Axe exactly proving the point that these weapons DID exist, even when an axe would not be the best choice of weapon for mithril given its weight. So undisputedly there was at least one mithril weapon we know of and since an axe requires a sharp blade, a sword would make equally sense. The other point is priorities: if you have a very limited supply of something, there is a compromise what you use it for. Clearly, since the dwarves were unmatched in the skills of making armour, much more than in making weapons, their priority was in making the finest armour of mithril, rather than weapons as relatively speaking this could elevate the quality of mithril armour to a much higher level in comparison to other metal, than if we would apply same comparison of mithril weapons vs other metal weapons. They likely made conscious choices with the very little mithril they had and preferred to make armour from it. From a combat perspective it makes perfect sense: the weight of an iron chain mail for example compared to a mithril one would have made a difference of life and death in the battlefield due to the weight slowing one down and impacting stamina as well. On top, the material was even harder than iron, so a clear life-saver for battle. In comparison, using a mithril sword might not have given the same benefit, hence the clear choice to use it for armour. On top, dwarves were mostly axe users, hardly using swords. An axe clearly requires momentum and needs weight, in that aspect mithril would even have been a detriment for use in axes. The more reason for them to use it in armour and even then in very rare occasions, given its rarity.

Getting back to the mod, one could draw the conclusion that since it was much more used in armour than in weapons for above reasons, but that we are empowered with free choice (with or without logic) as a player of the mod, why allow it to be used in weapons? For two reasons:

 1. Not class-specific: in the mod it is available to all players, either to be mined or looted, as well as to be crafted, so it’s not restricted to dwarves, unlike in the books. This means that Men, Elves and even Orcs could use it to prepare their weapons with it and not just armour. If your conclusion is that this is definitely non-canonical (Orcs, ha!), then the question arises to what extent ANYTHING in the mod is canonical: the fact that a fictional character has the capability to just go mining ore in the Misty Mountains, Mordor or discover the jungles of Far Harad? Tolkien never made mention of people either who had skills beyond measure, from more races even.. What realism is there in forging then, by just having a forge of a faction and assuming skills that would take a lifetime to master? Except for visiting an Elven or Dwarven smith, what realism is there in preparing these materials ourselves? Or crafting anything on a crafting table for that matter? Even visiting a smith is absurd to think that they would prepare the best weapons for a mere mortal. The alignment system is an excellent concept to enable “hero” status so these options open up, but first of all the crafting of more advanced items (especially the high-tier modifiers) is hardly alignment-level related and can be achieved almost immediately, on top some weapons would never have been crafted for other than a long bloodline of kings for example. Not to speak of any option to have a mithril item crafted just like that, without being claimed (rightfully) by the dwarves who mined it or dug the tunnels for centuries.. So the fact that the mod is not class-specific on mithril (being a conscious choice for many reasons) has to mean that there should be no restriction of use of the material either. Unless mithril becomes faction-related, in which case many more things need to be restricted to make the game fully canonical, rendering open gameplay practically impossible, as only certain factions would be attractive enough to be aligned with.

 2. Scarceness: in Middle-earth, it may have been scarce enough not to use it for weapons. In the mod, scarceness is related to playtime: the more one actively seeks mithril, the more is found. Were it limited to armour, it would seize to be incentivized very quickly, as the modifier system does not allow mithril to become overly powerful compared to iron and the only benefit it would have as armour is that it lasts longer, due to iron getting Steadfast or Tough modifiers to bring defense points to the same level as mithril. I see mithril mainly useful in the mod for weapons for this reason, less for armour, even if that would not be canonical. Like with the first point, if the conclusion is that the mod needs adapting the other materials to compensate for this, so that mithril again becomes more attractive as armour and not for weapons to make smithing canonical, then that needs a rethinking of the modifier system as a whole. And still it is not sure that it would make sense, since currently one has to put a huge amount of hours just for a single mithril item with maximum modifiers: if this were tilted in favour of armour to avoid weapons from being crafted, it would have to be an insanely expensive thing to craft a mithril weapon, possibly months of playtime for a single weapon, compared to weeks currently. Since I assume that nobody spends his life playing this game 24/7, it would practically mean that it makes no sense to have mithril weapons made at all. Which, in case we assume that that would only have been the case for reasons of scarcity and not for reasons of forced choice (i.e. that mithril weapons cannot be crafted), is by itself non-canonical.

All in all, I think the main question (as always) is where to draw the line of canonical vs playable. Canonical can also be interpreted as realistic, with the premises of the works. If everything were canonical, then the mod would not exist, since the player would be deprived of all knowledge and abilities, except if he were Gandalf and even then he would not fit a dwarven armour, ride a boar or whatever. So I think some compromises need to be struck and some free interpretation given to the use of materials like mithril, especially if there is no black/white exclusion of its use for a specific purpose. I think the current balance is well-struck, alternative ways of allowing mithril would upset this balance even more. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it still serves quite well for something we can assume.

You say, "I think based on this, both races were quite capable of making the best weapons (as end product), be it from mithril or other metals." But you haven't told me how the Elves actually got the "upgraded" mithril from the Dwarves. As far as we know, the only way that they mught have obtained it is in mithril armour sold to them by the Dwarves. It doesn't stand to reason that they would melt these down to make weapons; mithril is far more useful as armour, and the stuff is so rare and valuable that they wouldn't have enough surplus to make weapons.

On the next point, I take it that you misunderstood what I said earlier. Durin's Axe was not said to be made of mithril- what I meant was that if it was, then that would lend credibility to your argument. The rest of your paragraph seems like you're almost arguing for me. All of those are reasons why Dwarves would not use mithril weapons.

Realism =/= canon. They are both noble goals in the mod, but the mod does not have to be realistic in every way to follow the lore accurately. And yes; a fictional character could mine in the Misties and travel to Far Harad. The first is a bit of a no-brainer (though admittedly the real thing would take a lot more hard work than in the mod) and the second was probably completed by both Aragorn and Gandalf- it's just a matter of travelling. Forging, now that is not a realistic feature. Neither is crafting, alignment, fast travel, or most of the mod's features. However, these are essential so we can actually play the game without it being unnecessarily complicated- mithril weapons are not. As for your point on faction-specific powerful items being bad- I don't think that, in an ideal lore-based mod, Dwarves would be able to craft any weapons or armour of mithril. Items of mithril would be loot, not craftable things, or at least it would be so rare that it would be unfeasible to craft much of it. Far more accurate, and not really favouring a specific faction.

Again, canonical does not mean realistic, so I disagree with your last paragraph.