Board Thread:General Mod Discussion/@comment-26486187-20160925013413/@comment-25841881-20160930214553

Wargaz cc wrote: Recneps wrote: Wargaz cc wrote: Recneps wrote: Wargaz cc wrote: Recneps wrote: Wargaz cc wrote: Recneps wrote: One last comment.. Man IS, but they wouldn't have reached that if they hadn't fallen extinct. The human race likely would never have existed if that were the case..

On the subject.. Wargaz, the Age of Men happened, except Gondor was far from the most powerful of Mannish Kingdoms. It had fallen greatly in strength. Let's take what would've happened, based on the forces given, if the Haradrim(I'm counting Umbar) had attacked Gondor by themselves, without Gondor having allies. For one thing, the naval forces would have actually arrived, not been hijacked by Rangers and Spirits. For another, those massive Mumakil would be fighting against quite fewer enemies, especially cavalry. And also, you may be thinking that they never would've gotten a good attack on the Pelennor, because of Rammas Echor, Osgiliath, etc.. They would've. They have tons of ships, and could fairly easily land an army on an uninhabited section of the Gondorian coastline. Possibly Andrast. Then they might have trouble getting that army up to Rammas Echor and the Pelennor undetected, but they already have an army behind the enemy's main defenses. If they reach the Pelennor, then Rammas Echor would honestly not be too hard to take.. It's a great, big wall.. But long. Unless the Gondorians had forewarning, then it should be fairly easy for the Haradrim to take a section and then enter the Pelennor through that. You can't defend a wall as long as the Echor with nearly the same strength as you can with a city wall. Once they're in the Pelennor.. Well, most of the Gondorians forces would be coming from South of the Pelennor. If the Gondorians had forewarning, they'd have been racing to reach the Pelennor. Any that were found by the Haradrim could easily be defeated, as the Haradrim have a complete army. Any that weren't? Well, they'd either beat it to the Pelennor, and be absorbed into the defense there, or they'd come up after the Haradrim, and be a flanking force, but weary from marching and isolated from the bulk of the army in both planning and supplies. If the defenders in Minas Tirith managed to get a messenger out, then the levies could be effective, as they could be intercepted by the messenger and rally out of sight from the Haradrim. When enough of them arrived, they'd be able to launch a successful flanking attack. However, if the Haradrim had left defenders on Rammas Echor, such a tactic would likely fail, as the Haradrim would have forewarning of any gathering of men. If they managed to do a successful flanking before the Haradrim had taken the city, they'd probably win. If not? Well, they'd be slaughtered at the city's walls. And as to the Haradrim taking the city.. Well, the Gondorians wouldn't have their full forces pulled into the city. They'd also have pretty much no cavalry for harrying. It really depends on any siege equipment the Haradrim have, and the true size of a Mumak. If the Mumak are the same size as, or slightly larger than, modern elephants, then they could be all but ignored in a siege such as this. If they were the size they've been portrayed as in the movies, then they'd be very deadly. I think that you should advocate ‘Easterling Threat’ theory rather than a haradrim one, because that is more persuasive. Haradrim are just one of joint force of Morgul, but Easterlings attacked Gondor and Dale and Erebor at same time and fought in two fronts.

There are many of reasons that Haradrim isn't strong enough to fight Gondor alone, and it includes your words that describe Gondor: Umbar "had fallen greatly in strength". During the War of the Ring, Umbar had not fully recovered. Its navy wasn't really a opponent, and Mordor pulled them into the war. For mûmakil, why they should be a problem? They are the only advantage that Haradrim has, and "at the siege of Gondor there had been great number of the great mûmakil but that they were all destroyed". That was an army that Haradrim can muster under Sauron's will. Without Sauron and after the lost in WotR, there will only be less mûmakil on the field, but Gondor has solved more mûmakil before. Why would no rangers? The rangers of Ithilien assaulted the haradrim under the command of Denethor, and that's the action of the regular army of Gondor. Haradrim could only blame themselves for they didn't prepared for it. Seriously, Harad should develop iron gears and drop their brazen equipment, then we could talk about it as a opponent of Gondor. By the way, the system of early-warning system of Palantíri would be rebuild in Reunited Kingdom, so the king of Gondor may notice any movement of Haradrim even before they reached Ithilien or South Gondor by the Orthanc-stone.

Wait a minute, why would Haradrim will attack Gondor after WotR in first place? "it was also clear that the hatred of Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (for which they themselves had neither the will nor the wisdom) was due to the machinations of Sauron."

- Cirion And Eorl And The Friendship Of Condor And Rohan

The Haradrim attacking Gondor is to demonstrate how they aren't a clearly superior, overwhelming nation. And why would the Rangers of Ithilien be taking any ships? I was referring to the ships Aragorn and the Grey Company took and used to deliver the Spirits to the Pelennor. Is Gondorians attacking Mordor to demonstrate how they aren't a clearly superior, overwhelming nation? Why ships would be a problem? Did the Spirits even attack any ships? No, "Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear... all the mariners were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard, save the slaves chained to the oars." (The Last Debate, The Return Of The King) The Dead didn't fight, but Corsairs have no combat capability at all. Do you really rely on ships like that? Therefore, I said that "Umbar 'had fallen greatly in strength'. During the War of the Ring, Umbar had not fully recovered." Please don't forget that Gondor received the fleet of Umbar with literally no cost, and that is almost 40 ships, and there are the main force of the struggling Umbar. However, Gondor took them for free. You tell me how an unrecovered Umbar to raise another fleet to fight against Gondor? .. This is a hypothetical scenario. And also, lego, the same can be said of the Gondorians. And additionally, wargaz, do you not remember when the spirits arrived in ships? You literally got a quote from the section where they took the ships.. And say they attacked no ships.. There may not have been actual combat involved, but it was an attack. Not for the people of Dol Amroth: "But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas, dwelt Prince Imrahil in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes." (Minas Tirith, The Return Of The King)

If that is a attack, then Gondorians really should have no more fear on Umbar. After all, coastal populace could mystify and scar them, and that will be count as an attack! We don't even need Gondor regular army to deal with corsairs! By the way, I'd like to remind you, as MrHobit1234 told, that the spirits didn't appear on the Battle of Pelennor Fields. They scared corsairs like I quoted and Aragorn released them. The ships "transported 3,000 men of the southern fiefs" to Pelennor Fields. Yeah. Because a random villager running from the scary pirates definitely has the potential to frighten as an army of long-dead ghosts who have been responsible for the death of any who enter their home for an entire Age. At my post above, I read the section again, and am remembering it wrong. Again, my point still stands.. The port of Pelargir would not have been cleared of enemies, and those 3000 Southern levies would never have made it up. And as to Umbar.. What again was it recovering from at the time? It's been a while since I've read any of the pre-histories.

EDIT: Looked into it a little more - on Tolkien Gateway - and they were able to send 50 "great ships" and smaller vessels "beyond count." So, yeah, that recovery has gone well. Many, many ships - albeit ones perhaps the size of sloops - cannot be ignored. So you got the point: "great ships" and smaller vessels "beyond count" are taken by Gondor for free. How will Umbar recover again from the WotR and raise another fleet to attack Gondor? Gondor is the one that has "great ships" and smaller vessels "beyond count" now. Many, many ships - albeit ones perhaps the size of sloops - cannot be ignored. ..Sure, after the War of the Ring. But then we also destroy the Haradrim's army. My thing, if I was unclear, was staged before the actual War of the Ring. And why are you being so caustic?