Board Thread:General Mod Discussion/@comment-25981649-20170624004847/@comment-192.31.105.177-20170627034142

Notverygoodusername wrote:

192.31.105.177 wrote:

Notverygoodusername wrote: I like some improvements for health and armor, but not all the this-unit-can-do-better-agianst-this-unit-and-worse-agianst-this-unit and the random health (example range from 17hp to 19hp) thing. I agree that uruks should be closer to humans than elves (about 20hp and man-high growth), but I dislike the elven debuffs (although I'm usually an enemy of elves). I'd put the health so:

slave orcs (snaga) 16hp

normal fighter orcs 18hp

uruks 22hp

gundabad uruks 25hp

I agree on black uruks at current

uruk berserkers 40hp

all "civilized" humans (gondor, rohan, dale, dorwinion etc) 20hp except for elite/special units

all "barbarian" humans (dunlendings, rhudaur hillmen, moredain etc) 22hp except elite/special units

galadhrim elves, wood-elves, dorwinion elves, unimplemented avari elves 30hp

high-elves (rivendell, lindon) 40hp (also armor buff to dwarven strenght)

I agree on hill-troll and olog health point switch

dwarves should remain at current

EDIT: sorry for bad grammar, I wrote this quickly and I'm not really into correcting my mistakes High Elves having 40 HP? That is outrageous, unless for a super elite unit.

With the debuffs that I mentioned, they'd have the most amount of health out of any unit.

Besides, Uruks were known to be physically weaker than men, and Dunlendings / Rhudaur Hillmen were shorter and swarthier (ie. weaker in Tolkien's terms) than Men.

The big debuff for all the health units is to create a bigger gap for future 'hyper-elite' or story units, while creating a smaller gap for current units.

The basis for my health changes is because of frpm what I see in the books:

Goblins < Snaga < Orcs < Uruks < Wildmen < Men < Noble Men < Dunedain < Dwarves < Black Uruks < Numenoreans < Elves < Trolls < Huorns < Olog-hai < Heroes < Ents < Mumakill < Maiar < Valar

Therefore, I made it so that while I made Elves physically weaker, I still made them  the strongest possible units, I simply paved the way so that Trolls don't get beaten by a single Elf. Some people have told that high-elves were AMAZING in the books and in the mod they are underpowered. Maybe 40 health is a bit much, perhaps 35 then?

Hmmmmm, I don't remember uruks being weaker than men... But if they are, their health should be nerfred to 20 or under. Also, dunlendings and hillmen are told to be shorther (IDK what swarthy means, my english is not good, Google translate said that swarthy means black or dirty), but them being short doesn't make them weak..? Why would Tolkein say that short and "swarthy" (I still have no idea what that means) means "weak"? Barbarians should logically be stronger than civilised humans, because, for example, they hunt their food, not buy it from the market. An average caveman from the primitive ages of humanity would be stronger than most modern civilised men. Even a man from medevial ages would likely be stronger. If you'd put an average modern man into minecraft, then they'd likely have 18 or 16 health instead of 20.

What do you mean by "Hyper-Elite"? Like you could hire... some crazy berserker unit that has 80 health, mithril-strenght armor, more than 10 attack damage, faster speed than player sprinting etc? As I understand, story units stand for example Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo Baggins, Witch-King, Khamul, Sauron, Carcharoth, Arvedui, Elendil, Isildur, Melkor, Eowyn, Saruman, Ugluk, Gothmog, Dragluin, Eomer, Azog, Canon Character, etc? I wouldn't like the idea that, for example, you can get a story unit, such as Aragorn, and have him massacre all orcs, goblins and other fell creatures in his way? That would RUIN balance, like Angmar ruined Arnor and allies of Arnor ruined Angmar. Making him crazy expensive (example 64 mithril blocks) wouldn't be a solution either, cuz that is no make any sence!!!

Let's go with the health basis here:

goblins 14hp, snaga 16hp, orcs 18hp, uruks 19hp, wildmen 19-20hp, men 20hp, noble men 21hp, dunedain 22hp, dorfs 24hp, black uruks 25hp, numenoreans 26hp, elves 27hp, trolls 50hp, huorns 60hp, olog-hai 70hp, heroes 90hp, ents 100hp, mumakil 400hp, maiar 1000hp, valar 10000hp

I'm pretty sure 1 elf could defeat 1 troll in canon though, the 1 elf just being a normal warrior with average skill, not an OP-hero-lord-king-person-thingy. if this is wrong (this probably is...) then correct me.

Of the current elves I don't imagine them as the best stock of the elves, but rather a basic infantry that while stronger than any other unit with the except of the Black Uruks (hence them having the most health *27* than any other unit than trolls) is not the most elite, and should have another unit, labelled such as 'Noldor Swordsmen', that would have 35+ health and wield their armor, but be made much more expensive and rare than the regular Elf.

Uruks were much shorter, and while they were well-armed they couldn't break through a Rohirrim shieldwall mostly due to their height.

While swarthy doesn't necessairly mean weaker, they were characterized as a brutish folk that was short, skinny, dirty and not as strong as the regular Rohirrim. (A Dunlending Berserker would differ.)

While sure, a neanderthal would definetly beat most regular humans of this age, you must take into consideration that the Dunlendings, while strong were considered inferior as a race, and since they came from the Haladin stock were inferior to the other edain.

By hyper-elite and story units, I mean Citadel Guards, Uruk Berserkers, Black Numenoreans, Morgul Knights, Mountain Trolls, Guards of Mithlond, Guards of Orthanc, Bolg's Guard. So units that could be rehired and such, and not individual characters.

Goblins and Snaga should be identical tbh, and Orcs and Uruks had a greater health difference, but the rest of what you said ties in almost identically with what I suggested... i.e.

Goblins & Snaga 14 hp, Orcs 16 hp, Uruks 18 hp, wildmen 19 hp, levymen 19 hp, noblemen 22 hp, dunedain 22 hp, dwarfs 24 hp, black uruks 26 hp, numenoreans 26 hp, low elves 26 hp, high elves 27 hp, trolls 60, huorns 60 but faster, olog-hai 70, heroes ??, ents 100 hp, mumak 120-300 hp, maiar & valar ???

A regular hill-troll was able to kill Arador, Aragorn's grandfather and the chieftain of the rangers of the north, and while a regular elf was powerful, a troll was not to be messed with and only trumphed by a ent / huorn, whom they were made as a mockery of.