User blog comment:Sir Lazuli/Replacing Redstone/@comment-33763020-20180128143219/@comment-33763020-20180129224929

Reading some earlier posts now, it seems I did not inform myself sufficiently before writing, my apologies for that :). It seems indeed the concept of redstone (even if in a different form) is planned by Mevans based on his writing and I was out of line to assume otherwise based on my little knowledge so far on this mod's creation process and to consider your efforts as misplaced. Immersion and Lore even are subjective matters of course and one cannot please everyone.

“Bringing Middle-earth to Minecraft” can be interpreted in some ways. I think that there is Middle-earth (ME) immersion and Minecraft (MC) immersion and while this mod is a good marriage of the MC foundation and the world Tolkien created, it is my belief that the success and power of this mod and how it distinguishes itself from other mods is its full focus on Tolkien’s world, while MC is used as a vessel to this end. The very reason that practically everything is changed by Mevans (biomes, NPC’s, tools, player identity, place, time, races, travel, missions, etc.) is to create a world resembling Middle-earth, I think we can agree on that. From this perspective, anything vanilla is secondary and any omission is not a “shortcoming”, but serves the goal of the mod’s existence, even if it involves something as fundamental to the vanilla version as redstone. I would be surprised if Mevans wants to implement redstone (in some other format of course) for any other reason than ME immersion, for example to adhere to vanilla MC game immersion, but I cannot judge or know the creator’s motivations and possibly need for compromise in this matter. If it serves ME immersion, I understand the intention and your examples also show how much of the machinery already existed in that age, but a redstone-type of functionality inherently opens a new dimension that goes far beyond fulfilling ME immersion needs and I feel it would be counter-productive. Opening a gate with a simple lever is not the same as having a machine run by itself that breeds, kills and cooks farm animals for my convenience: both will be equally easy when repeater-type of functionalities are implemented and even purists would not avoid making use of them for reasons of convenience. I saw a suggestion of AlteOgre for example to enable NPC’s to better recognize/avoid traps, which tells me that indeed there are serious efforts to safeguarding a gameplay where technology does not take upper hand, unlike in the vanilla version where technology makes us pretty much a God. Vanilla MC is like time-travel through progress in technology compared to an environment where time stands still, while in the LotR mod we are just a mortal from the many in a set age and require much more skill to progress in knowledge and power while staying alive, exactly because of lack of advanced technology.

Of course many more limitations of the vanilla MC version exist that are not useful for ME immersion, such as (selective) lack of gravity, chunk loading and similar coding-related aspects, but these are inherent to proper functioning of the game, while redstone is a feature that facilitates immersion for the vanilla version and without which it looses a lot of content. Its lack however does not do any detriment to the LotR mod (in my opinion).

Anyway, I hope the final means of implementation will be a proper one, though seeing the extent of attention to detail by the creators, I'm sure it will be given due diligence :). Good luck with your efforts in supporting it, your writing is quite exemplary in my opinion!

To not seem like a troll pour l’art, let me add some comments on the specific content of your analysis as well, from my personal perspective: in general I do not think any technological steps should be added that would mean intellectual capacity progress deus-ex-machina, such as your description of refined binary circuits. It may be that the dwarves had the machinery to make a clockwork device, but they didn’t, at least not in that age. I would treat all technological inventions as such, not with the knowledge or tools from our age.

 1. Since most points seem variations to energy sources to me (steam/water/molten metal/beacons all translate to energy in the end), I would first distinguish between the sources (and pick one, most obvious for the age being wind, water or heat), decide on the type of energy transfer (kinetic, heat(flow), heat(conducting), etc.) and move on to the medium-material that replaces redstone (metal, rope, gunpowder or other) for the chosen energy type. For example, source could be solar “Dwarven Sun-stones” that store sunlight (meaning the receptor needs vertical sky access with no solid blocks above it) at daytime, the stone heats up and the heat can then be used as an energy source, with or without an inbetween such as boiling water for steam. If heat is chosen this way, metal could be a “conductor” transferring heat till the output point. At the output an action would be performed by a “converter” of unknown description (D.E.M.). An other version would be for example driven watermills (energy) connected to a pulley (kinetic) connected to ropes (“conducting” material) performing the physical action at the output point.

 2. Energy supply: I would avoid anything that has a storable source other than existing forms of fuel. (Char)coal, wood and lava yes, as these expire. Torches not (unless they expire), neither any source that gives infinite energy. If water energy can be used to drive mills, it could provide power, but only in kinetic energy format for power transmission via pulleys.

 3. Circuitry: I think there were no means of energy transfer in Middle-earth to enable binary circuitry on a micro level, as that would require refined components, which were only crafted by dwarves. They did not bother to create clockworks however for cultural reasons as far as I know. Though a rope circuitry was probably not called for either, it could be “invented” in a knit-machine kind of way, but in that case only of the finest Elven threads, which still should be expiring through use. From a pragmatic perspective, it would mean a collapse of the circuitry however as soon as a thread snaps, like a resetting of a redstone circuit. Also, there is the issue of non-linear power transmission to operate the different threads to deliver different signal timings (to imitate a circuit). This would require several power sources to be working at once, but at independent timings from each other. A clockwork-type of approach such as the water-wheels you describe would mean (again) refined components that work independently from each other. This with the fact that dwarf did not make refined components excludes any complex circuitry of a repeater kind.

 4. Rope system (pure kinetic energy): absolutely realistic for the age if it relates purely to hoisting/moving, with pulleys if needed. Of course these existed in those times as well and it’s a straightforward power transfer (either with or without pulleys), depicted by the pull of a lever for example, such as is possible with the Millstone.