Board Thread:General Mod Discussion/@comment-27462565-20161205065856/@comment-30079501-20161230195400

Dragonovith wrote: Reddieeddie wrote: Dragonovith wrote: There's something slightly off with Dorwinion. I mean, they are enemies of Angmar, Dol Guldur, Mordor, Gundabad, Isengard and the Half-trolls, but yet they expect peace with the Easterlings?

What prevents the Easterlings from simply putting their banner on Dorwinion and say: "This land belong to us now, you grapelovers, and from now on you'll pay tribute to us!"

With the War of the Ring being waged, I see no reason for the Khaganate not to try some kind of hostile takeover, so I believe that their relations could receive two small tweaks to better represent the idea of the situation between these two factions, that currently makes part of this mod's lore:

-- Dorwinion pays a tribute to the Khaganate to avoid being attacked by them. This could be mentioned by NPCs saying things like: "Our gold and our wine buy a fragile peace between us and the Khaganate, but I fear it may not last for long", "The men and those pointy-eared people of Dorwinion are weak, I say! They fight the mighty of the Easterling fist with treasure and grape. Our leaders are happy for now, but their will is unpredictable.". I think that dialogues like this show how tense the situation is, a simply border skirmish between the two sides could cause a war! I hope the diplomats of Dorwinion have the "Grey Eminence" trait.

-- If tribute buys the peace of Dorwinion, no Orc invasion should happen there (maybe only from Gundabad, they're purely chaotic anyway), because the Khaganate would probably send emissaries to Dol Guldur and Mordor, asking them not to raid Dorwinion. "Yo Sauron, ma bro. Don't mess with the Dorwinrim, man, they're cool, ya know? They gimme booze and cash - Signed: Mighty leader of the Khaganate". That doesn't mean the players and Dorwinion won't be enemies of those factions, of course not, but they should stop raiding and invading Dorwinion, after all, they are literally collaborating with the bad guys!

For Mordor, Dorwinion would be considered a client-state of the Khaganate. Instead of raiding, they could simply tell the Khagan to ask for more tribute, and if they don't pay, they would have to send armies to beat Dorwinion into submission. Don't forget that sustaining and equipping armies is am expensive effort, and the people of Dorwinion would fight to defend their homeland, and we all know how a hard someone cornered fights. The difference between Angmar, DG, et. al., and the Easterlings is that the former are all orcs/trolls, whereas the Easterlings are men. However, while they do seem to engage in trade with the Easterlings, the Dorwinrim are also aware of the threat they pose, hence the Vintner Guard. ("The Vintner Guard keep us safe from those barbarians in the East.")

Ofc, the chances of the Vintner Guard holding off an Easterling invasion seem slim (altho the c-bow men are tough customers). But it's not like Dorwinion trades only with the Easterlings. They trade with many good factions, including Dale, WR, and the Dwarves. So if the Easterlings attempted a takeover of Dorwinion during the War of the Ring, it's unlikely that certain facs (especially Dale) are just going to sit back and let it happen. They don't like the Easterlings to begin with, and they certainly wouldn't want to lose their trading partner like that.

Furthermore, as Legoarmy touched on, the Easterlings had other things to be doing with their troops. They sent troops to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and they also launched an unaided attack on Dale/Erebor, which they almost won. Realistically, the Easterlings were probably content to trade with Dorwinion, and send their troops where Sauron directed, rather than risk sending more troops to another invasion. "The difference between Angmar, DG, et. al., and the Easterlings is that the former are all orcs/trolls, whereas the Easterlings are men."

There might be many differences between Orcs and Men, but they all have the same lord, Sauron, and as we all know, he loves elves!

"However, while they do seem to engage in trade with the Easterlings, the Dorwinrim are also aware of the threat they pose, hence the Vintner Guard"

They don't have cavalry and their equipment is lacking when comparing with other factions. I've heard around the forum that this is the case because they aren't a warlike people, even though Dorwinion seens to be a very rich land, what could afford them perhaps mercenaries or good equipment. If the people of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor were nearly wiped out, imagine how the war with Dorwinion would've been. That's why I believe that in the mod's lore Dorwinion should be paying tribute to the Khagante and allowing free passage for their armies.

"So if the Easterlings attempted a takeover of Dorwinion during the War of the Ring, it's unlikely that certain facs (especially Dale) are just going to sit back and let it happen. They don't like the Easterlings to begin with, and they certainly wouldn't want to lose their trading partner like that."

The stakes are too high for the Dalish to worry about losing a trading partner. Half of Middle Earth is at war, and to leave your lands with a meagre garrison would be unwise. Rohan did it because the Dunlendings were routed and Isengard completely destroyed.

"Furthermore, as Legoarmy touched on, the Easterlings had other things to be doing with their troops. They sent troops to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, and they also launched an unaided attack on Dale/Erebor, which they almost won."

Apparently the Easterlings have a large army, and a large army needs lots of food and drink everyday. Maybe foraging and the supply routes coming from the Khaganate are enough, but Dorwinion is a fertile land just around the corner, and it is literally between Dale and the Khaganate. If you check this mod's maps, Dorwinion is right on the middle of the only road that connects the Khaganate and Dale, therefore, if Dorwinion was conquered, or made a tributary state, it could serve as another supply route capable of quickly sending food and other needed supplies through that road.

"Realistically, the Easterlings were probably content to trade with Dorwinion, and send their troops where Sauron directed, rather than risk sending more troops to another invasion."

I don't know. The Easterlings, ever since they appeared in Middle Earth, they have been described as a treacherous and barbaric warlike people. Even Gandalf mentions that their kings (probably the Haradrim too) slaughtered their own family members out of desperation. Just imagine what a good society to live in that one must be! Well, probably not worse than the country I live in :). 1. xD

2. Dorwinion should get cavalry, and some more equipment would be nice. They were able to afford dwarven-made spears, why can't they have other equipment? And an elven faction without a bow is just silly. I think they will get upgrades at some point, hopefully soon. Currently in the mod, Dorwinion's military doesn't seem strong enough to defeat an Easterling invasion, but they wouldn't simply roll over and surrender, either. They'd make it a battle.

3. The Easterlings are Dale's greatest enemy. Were they to attack Dorwinion, Dale would therefore have the freedom to send aid, as the Easterlings probably wouldn't have had the numbers needed to assault Dale (and Erebor) as well.

4. According to the recent FB post, "[the Easterlings] have an organised civilisation in the fertile lands close to the shore." Probably not quite as fertile as Dorwinion, but they sound quite capable of providing themselves with the necessary sustenance, without risking an invasion of Dorwinion. The positioning of roads is misleading, since the Easterling invasion of Dale (like the Balcoth invasion of Rhovanion) likely went north of the Sea of Rhun. I believe that's how Fonstad marked it in the AoME, which is considered canon for the mod.

5. Again, the FB post wouldn't lead me to believe these are barbaric people. The Balchoth and Wainriders were more primitive, but we're talking about the "movie Easterlings", whose affinity for ornate golden armor seems out of place in a barbaric society. Even the picture below suggests a more civilized nation--it appears to be a stable, yet even that is fitted with golden chandeliers. Even in today's world, few people have anything close to that nice in their houses. xD