Board Thread:Suggestions forum/@comment-29212138-20170526182111/@comment-29212138-20170527143559

High King Ithilion wrote: Dolgukhor wrote: Well actually everyone can, because they were in Umbar, and in great number...

AND you keep trying looking for a passage that indicates they were there but which passages indicates they died out?

There is no passage of Umbarian Black Numenoreans being extinct as a race. If Tolkien has means to say they are extinct then why not do so, as he has done with the Orcs and Men of Angmar?

You are against Umbar Having the small community when we both know its the most prominent place it would be as NO passage idicates that they are extinct in the region and the passages you give me either speak of the whole race *Which we know still lives* or Castamir's kin *in which we know become corsairs of mixed haradrim and gondorian blood*

Its like saying if the romans scarce and there were some communities still of roman decent they wouldnt be in italy but Spain, France, or even Turkey.

You say Umbarian Black Nuemenoreans died out, how where has tolkien ever said this?

You say i must prove my point but I am i not proving something like there are flying pigs in ME I support a race  that was there for thousands of years. So in matter of fact why am I the one to prove they live on when they were already lived in  the region? Whilst you tell me they are extinct which cannot be true as the riders and the mouth of Sauron live. What you are trying to do is prove that a race, already swiftly dwindling by the start of the Third Age, still exists in a place that they weren't. We *know* ("LOST ALL") that there was no Numenorean blood from Castamir's followers there, and that it's been two thousand years since the last Black Numenorean was seen there, when they took the city in the early second millenium (around TA 1000). It was then, after several sacks, retaken by the Haradrim alone after Castamir. This shows the following:

- The Numenoreans were in swift decline and never mentioned after TA 1000 (yes, I know about the Mouth!)

- The City was sacked several times.

- All the Castamiri lost their Numenorean blood. It's interesting this is mentioned, because why would it matter if there were still Numenoreans?

- The city was retaken by the Haradrim, with, for whatever reason, no mention of Numenorean help, even though that was mentioned last time it was retaken.

- That Tolkien made several notes about how fast the Numenoreans declined.

This all points to the fact that Tolkien wanted to show that there was no Numenorean blood left. All the evidence points to that, and there's no hard evidence to suggest they were still there. ''It's over, Dolgukhhor. I have the lore grounds.''

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lómë) Yes, this is why I wasn't willing to give the black numenorians more than gondorian health. It's just not accurate.