Board Thread:General Mod Discussion/@comment-33763020-20181106145423/@comment-33763020-20181115105500

QuinoaFalafel wrote: Barangolo wrote: QuinoaFalafel wrote: As a person who has delved quite deeply into the realm of making adventure maps, I want very passionately to create one for the lotr mod. However, there are a multitude of facts that make it essentially impossible, and discourage me from doing so.

Most importantly, is adventure mode itself. Minecraft 1.8 overhauled adventure mode, allowing for a lot more control on the part of the mapmakers, making it so that blocks cannot be destroyed unless the player has a tool that has specifically been designated that purpose by the mapmaker. In 1.7, pickaxes can destroy all stone, shovels can destroy dirt, gravel, sand, etc. Almost all blocks can be destroyed with the right tool, and this cannot be prevented or controlled.

Secondly, is the commands themselves. The updates following 1.7, namely 1.8 and 1.9, have overhauled command blocks and the commands themselves, opening hundreds of new possibilities to mapmakers.

For me, since I strive to make any map I would create the most complete, impressive, and enjoyable experience, the 1.7 mechanics are just too limiting, and they are the reason we will likely never see extremely impresive adventure maps for the mod, unless the mechanics are changed. Probably my luck then that since I have never made a map, I do not know what I will miss by not having a more accommodating version of MC to make better maps :D. So this will definitely not hinder me. The biggest stumbling block is whether there are any people at all interested in them, can maps be made that hold their interest, etc. I am planning a slow map, meaning long travels and not everyone may have patience for that.

Regarding the mechanics, there is a very easy way to prevent block destruction: banner protection. I agree that that only applies to a specific area and not the huge map itself, but personally I would still keep the MC mechanics of block creation/destruction in, since I would not want to deprive the player from living in Middle-earth with its seemingly endless possibilities. I feel that finishing a quest in the LotR mod and not being able to continue the game, not being able to use the full mechanics, is like not being in the mod at all. I would feel disappointed by having finished a quest and not being able to continue playing the mod after that. Since Middle-earth is a given and we are in a "historic" fantasy age, this by itself is an adventure. If I put a storyline in it, the bigger picture of the fight between Good and Evil still exists and I respect that setting by not overruling it with my storyline. In short: I would make adventures that not only fit the setting, but where the player can just continue playing with all mechanics. So in my stories, it is essential to be able to place/destroy blocks.

I don't know about commands and command blocks. Is that something in cheat mode? I've never used cheat mode before. To be honest, I don't even know what it means and their purpose. The way I see it: the less special mechanics in the story, the better. I simply would want my character to walk through ME and "stumble" upon the quests. Of course not by pure coincidence: I need to lead him to the clues in a smart way, so that anyone can do it, but it is not too easy either. Mostly through notes, but if possible (through the CustomNPC mod) through text lines of characters. Either way: cheating should not help the player, as that takes away the fun of the story and I think that forcing the player to go through the process makes it more fun in the end then just jumping to the end result. An example: the player starts out in a place with a chest in direct vicinity and a note in it (or in his pocket), that leads to the next clue. This is simple enough for anyone. The next clue would be somewhat more difficult and would lead to having to FIND a place where the next clue is. Then there may be enemies that need defeating to get the next clue. Alignment would play a role as well, so that certain buildings can only be entered if your alignment with a faction is high enough, as the building is banner protected, so you could not destroy blocks or open its gate, etc., unless you're aligned with the given faction. I don't know what command blocks do, but if you lead the player along the story, there should not be any need for additional tools. The game mechanics should lend themselves to finding the clues and following a storyline.

I am confident that the players of this mod have a certain intelligence that is required to be interested in alignment, discovery and use of tools. So the clues can be a bit challenging at times, to lead to the game end. If we put together maps properly, we may even create parallel storylines, in other words if the more difficult clues are not found/achieved, the player may still continue the story, albeit in a slightly different line. It is possible to create the same story ending with different paths that lead to it. But it may also be that different story endings are created, depending on how the player wants to play it.. For example: if the player decides to play an Evil character or gets alignment with the wrong factions (despite specific instructions in notes and clues to grow Good alignment), then he will not be able to open certain areas that contain further clues to the quest, but gets led to a different path alltogether. I could even imagine a more convenient solution, like buildings along the path that hold clues to the next place in the story, but one room always contains clues for Good players and an other room for Evil players. Both chambers would be protected by the respective alignment banner, so that only one of the chambers can be opened. This way, the player can continue the story, no matter the alignment. This is just one of the techniques that could apply to the mod, since it has special mechanics that are exciting to make use of. No other mods hold these specific mechanics, so to use them makes it not only a unique mod, but also unique Minecraft gameplay.

In general it would be my aim to create adventure gameplay with rules that apply to this mod specifically. There are not that many currently, but Alignment certainly is one, banner protection an other (just see the fantastic Taurethrim pyramids for example, which make for a mini-adventure via banner protection). Forging could be an other, mini-quests again an other, etc. There are a lot of possibilities in this game, thanks to Mevans' efforts. I think v1.7.10 has a lot of possibilities for making good adventure stories. We have to row with the oars we have at our disposal ;). I see. I suppose the realm of adventure maps really is vast, but I personally aspire towards the kind of map that is essentially a game in and of itself, with questlines, custom builds, and its own mechanics (through commands and command blocks). Good examples of maps similar to this can be found on drobnovia.com, if you don't know what I'm talking about. For that kind of adventure map, 1.7's mechanics are mostly too limiting (not to say it can't be done, though. If you look at any of Hypixel's adventure maps, they are very enjoyable, and are also 1.7.10).

So for me, the goal of an adventure map is not often to allow "regular" playing of the game, but is purely for the story and experience of the map. True, we all use MC in a way we like, that's the great thing about sandbox games and this one in particular :).

Thank you for the links. I have tried some "specialized" adventure maps before, in other words those maps that serve no long-term community purpose or the option of endless play, but I have 2 issues when playing them:

1. The game ends when you finish the game.. The story is all, there is no bigger picture or concept it fits in. Surviving the crash on an island, building in the sky till you built all there is to build in vanilla MC, preventing a zombie apocalypse, gathering this or that to finish a monument, etc. Since the attention span of most of the players is rather short and an adventure map is made with that in mind, it is usually rather quickly finished, a few days at most. Even if (and especially if) an adventure map was fun, once you finish the quests, it's over. Which is a real shame I think if it was a fun map and waste of effort by the maker, to build out new mechanics, a whole map, etc.. That is why I rather have a quest inside an existing mod, which I can then continue playing as before, like the LotR mod. It is also a good way to introduce players to playing the mod. Those who enjoyed it, can join a broader community and contribute with their ideas. In my opinion this gives more depth than just "consuming" a map and moving on.

2. Having said that, I hardly find adventure maps I like.. I don't like parcour, puzzles are usually too simple, survival in the end always boils down to simple mechanics of melee fights, so it is hard to find challenging and interesting maps at the same time. Let's be honest, battle and agility is the least interesting or refined in MC, while most adventure maps boil down to that. MC as a game lends itself more for adventuring with a creative aspect, in which the player interacts with the elements, rahter than being a passive consumer of a fixed map where nothing can be changed. The LotR mod lends itself to a both challenging and very interesting gameplay, since it is a world by itself with special rules and possibilities, requiring more intelligence, immersing yourself in the world to make the best of it. The amount of time that has gone into it by Mevans and the mod team has made it into a game that can be played for hunderds of hours or basically endlessly for those who play on servers or make up their own stories. So it only makes sense to use Middle-earth for the setting, which is probably also the reason why you would like to use it for adventure maps, though you would want to go a step further by enhancing mechanics as well, while I am content with the given mechanics. I'm sure that once I find out what more options would exist, I would feel a miss of those, so I rather do not delve into mapping that much :D.

In general, I think the biggest challenge to creating good maps is probably knowing which audience you want to serve with it. The above mentioned short span of attention of the younger audience is a crucial issue for example: if you make a map that lasts long (due to extensive travels for example), some players may find it tedious and not even get to the fun part. In case it is too short however and ends abruptly, players are left with a feeling of disappointment. The same goes for the complexity of the challenges: a puzzle too difficult to solve, enemies too hard to beat, secrets too well hidden, there are many aspects that can lead to frustration. I guess if you have delved deep into map maping, you are aware of all these :). The benefit of an existing quality mod like LotR and allowing for open gameplay next to the adventure in my opinion is that the player can always consider the quest as a side-activity and let it rest whenever it gets too challenging or boring. If you make the adventure the only goal, most players will find it either too short or too long, both are a real shame. I think that by opening up the sandbox gameplay option next to the adventure, the story gets as long as the player wants. For those who are interested in long quests, you just make a practically endless quest that could take weeks. For those who want immediate result, you can break down the story into segments, achievements that can be achieved quicker and it is up to the discretion of the player whether he wants to continue with the next one or not.