Board Thread:Suggestions forum/@comment-27200931-20170426224854/@comment-31907131-20170428021955

Dragonovith wrote: Gandalfthegreatestwizard- EpicMithrandir wrote: Dragonovith wrote: High King Ithilion wrote: Still, there wouldn't be that many orcs, wargs, and balrogs down there. Otherwise, why wouldn't they come out and declare their own realm?

Also, the corrupted elves are rather off, seeing as Tolkien eventually decided Orcs were bred from various kinds of Men....

Ithilion, Discussions Moderator (Auta i lómë) 01:38, April 28, 2017 (UTC) If the Valar sealed the entrances to Utumno, they wouldn't be able to leave. And if for some reason they were able to climb up that pit from the mod's fortress, all they would've found was a huge snow wasteland. And in the case of an Orc successfully coming out of Utumno and travelling out of Forodwaith, would him be lucky enough a second time to find his way back to the Pits?

Gandalfthegreatestwizard- EpicMithrandir wrote: Dragonovith wrote: Gandalfthegreatestwizard- EpicMithrandir wrote: Hahaha. Very funny. There is no damn lore! Utumno was destroyed completely long before the Third Age. Anything written would be in direct contradiction to lore. "Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. Many evil things still lingered there, and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour; and Sauron they did not find."

It's simple: Utumno was destroyed and some evil servants of Morgoth survived by hiding themselves in caverns and vaults under Utumno, then some time passed and those creatures started to reproduce. Then they returned to Utumno, possibly because of an overpopulation, or maybe because of conflicts between groups or tribes? When was this quote? If after the second defeat of Melkor, I withdraw my comments. If after the first defeat, they still stand. I'm not sure, that quote is from when Melkor was defeated, captured and brought back to Valinor. Well, if you're correct about the captured part, that was indeed after the first defeat of Melkor (I think), meaning that I may well be right. Could I have the context (text before and after quote)?

My memory is foggy in differentiating the several defeats of Melkor, so I may well be wrong. "But at the last the gates of Utumno were broken and the halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age. Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. Many evil things still lingered there, and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour; and Sauron they did not find. But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor, bound hand and foot, and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom" ---

Thousands of years have passed since the destruction of Utumno, that's enough time for the Orcs boys and the Orc girls to repopulate the ruins of Udûn. Ah. So I was right. That was the first defeat of Melkor, when they captured him and kept him captive in Mandos. After that, he destroyed the Trees, established Thangorodrim over Angband, and was defeated again in the War of Wrath. In his second defeat, both Angband/ Thangorodrim and Utumno were utterly razed.