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  • You posted a response on the thread, which has now been closed because it was a necropost. However, I'd still like to address your points.

    Barangolo wrote: As with most things in the mod, this is probably the same compromise: adherence to lore vs MC (mod) logic vs real-life logic. Something may be fully following lore but would be a miss to the game due to its mechanics, for example endless water supply, selective gravity, etc.

    Lore

    IF mithril weapons were not mentioned by Tolkien (though the Tolkien Gateway does mention this: „The only mithril-objects at the end of the Age were only heirlooms, or new weapons forged out of existing ones.”) does not mean they did not exist.. Since armour did, logically weapons had to as well, it is not mentioned anywhere that only armour was made from mithril. Likewise if it is not specifically mentioned for every single weapon and armour type that it was made of iron, we can still safely assume that if the material lends itself to it, it was forged with it. Why would mithril be any different? So lore is open for interpretation here in my opinion, as it does not specifically deny its existence for any specific reason.

    Minecraft & LotR mod mechanics

    Leaving out a material that is so unique and gives further incentive to be found or used would be a real shame for long-term play: certain areas where mithril is found would lose attractivity somewhat (Utumno, Barrow-downs, Trollshaws, Ettenmoors, the Misty Mountains, etc.), places that currently provide unique loot or finding spots for this metal. Longer term incentive to grow prosperous would reach a limit, since iron would be top-tier metal and it is both cheap to reforge, as well as easy to get in both ore and loot, so in a fraction of time one could not grow any further in equipping better armour and weapons. Mithril however is a real incentive: I recently had my Legendary Blessed Enduring mithril sword forged at a total of around 15,000 coins on top of the six ingots that combine these ideal modifiers, a quarter of the coin reserve that took 2 months to acquire, that’s easily 2 weeks of hard work for a single weapon. We are still talking about a single weapon that I could loose any time in Utumno for example or by carelessly pressing the drop button when near lava.. The list of mithril items I would like to ultimately have is tenfold however, not to speak of the fact that eventually the more you have, the more mithril is required to repair them, as eventually even mithril decays, even if 5 times slower than most other steel. So mithril is a good motivator and being fully equipped with it is hardly achievable in a realistic timeframe.

    Also, when comparing mithril with other MC materials on whether they were used in Middle-earth, this would make stone, gold and obsidian swords questionable as well, but not using given materials changes MC mechanics fully. Which brings me to the next point, realism.

    Real-life pragmatism

    Golden swords make very little sense as we know, due to the soft material that gold is and its weight, making this probably a combination making least sense and would unlikely ever have been used in Middle-earth either, even less than Mithril. The very rich would have had enough sense not to throw their lives away using one and for decoration purposes would probably rather have used the gold in trimming or different gifts and artifacts, than as a weapon. Gold for weapons should probably have to be taken out of gameplay alltogether as well, if we try to be realistic about its use.

    Stone is equally nonsense due to not lending itself to be crafted, breaking quite easily and being far too heavy and blunt to be used as a sword at least. Still it’s a weapon of MC for the reason that it’s a readily available material, so its use is related to game-mechanics, not to reality. Taking it out would create a gap that needs filling with an other, equally easily available material, but there is none, since bronze is the most next logical step after stone, but is much more difficult to find than stone and requires serious forging and processing, so it makes sense that it is a valuable material that is not that easy to come by as cobblestone.

    Next to the material issue, the use of the weapon decides form and function, as well as shape: the argument that mithril is light and therefore not efficient as a melee weapon (which requires momentum) highlights only one aspect of swords. Depending on shape, in certain instances speed and the sharpness of the sword can be more important than momentum through weight, just compare a heavy broadsword with a 1 kg katana. Mithril might be light, but if it’s the toughtest material, it is probably also one of the sharpest, hence with less momentum the cut still goes deeper, not to speak of the sharpness of the blade remaining intact. Also, thrusting, unlikely cutting, relies more on speed and sharpness than on weight and who said mithril swords are meant to be like double-edged ones and not curved Asian types or straight but thrusting oriented? The strength of the wielder is another factor or the fact that with less weight the swing is faster, therefore timing it to hit at the right spot is better and impact therefore also more efficient, even with less momentum.

    Sharpness and durability is crucial as well, medieval sword fights hardly involved cutting and parrying with the sharp sides of the blade for this very reason and body contact was much more prevalent to avoid this: swords easily broke and went blunt during a long fight. Mithril resolves much of these issues so lends itself much better for melee weapons than any other material. If anything, the fact that a material like mithril existed in Middle-earth (non-existent in ours) probably made much more sense to create swords with than any other material we currently use, none being sharp and durable enough to this purpose. Weight therefore is actually secondary to the hardness of the metal, when it comes to the use of the weapon. If anything, the crossbow would make much less sense to be made of mithril, since weight is much more important there to stabilize the weapon as a counterweight for the projectile, making trajectory more predictable.

    All in all, I believe that not explicit mentioning by Tolkien of factual use does not mean it was not used in certain ways, as logic dictates its use. From a MC and mod point of view, it makes perfect sense and adds more possibilities and incentives for questing, looting, stronger economy, etc. Most of the fictional details of factions further south especially are non-canonical, still make sense for gameplay and immersion. Why would such use of mithril not fit in then, which was an existent material and makes perfect sense?

    No, mithril weapons do not exist. If something was not mentioned by Tolkien and is not a logical extension of other things he mentioned, then it cannot be said to exist in Middle-earth.

    "Leaving out a material that is so unique" I'll stop you there. Removing weapons is not leaving mithril out. Mithril is not currently unique, at least in the way it is made into weapons. It's a clone of diamond which looks different and is rarer. Removal of mithril weapons, and expansion of other uses for mithril, is what will make it unique. Replacements for mithril are possible, such as a system of forging iron and steel which will allow for good weapons that are not mithril.

    Gold and stone swords make no sense. I'm glad that we've established that. They should be removed too- they can be replaced by a more realistic system. However, that was not the subject of this thread.

    I'm no expert on weapon-making. But I've heard several times that mithril wiuld be a bad material for swords. It's too light- if the person wielding it had to parry a blade, it would just be knocked out of the way. There is no indication at all that mithril weapons would be sharper than others. And since Tolkien never mentioned weapons, it's quite possible that some metallurgical property prevented it from being made into them.

    The southern factions are logical extensions of lore; people are known to dwell in the south. Mithril weapons are not a logical extension of lore; as far as we know mithril cannot be made into effective weapons.

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    • Thindithron the Great wrote:
      In regards to your points on the feasibility of a mithril sword- I am not knowledgeable enough to dispute them.

      However: Elves could not make mithril swords, unless the Dwarves had already "treated" the metal for them.

      It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim.

      The uses that Elves had for mithril, in its usual form, fall into the earlier category: beating it like copper, polishing it like glass, and generally using it for decoration- as with ithildin. The Dwarves were the only ones who could actually make it "light and yet harder than tempered steel". So, unless the Dwarves gave amounts of- let's call it "upgraded" mithril- to the Elves, which I deem unlikely, Elves were limited to the basic metal. Of course, the Dwarves did give items made of the upgraded mithril to the Elves- Bilbo’s mail shirt was going to be one such- but there are no indications that the Elves knew enough of its creation to reforge it into weapons. Besides, the Elves already could create weapons that could last for millenia, like the swords of Gondolin. It would seem an exercise in pointlessness to make a mithril sword, from the most valuable material in the world, when a steel one would serve.

      Perhaps, say, the Dwarves could have made weapons out of mithril (they would be the only ones who could do so). Where, then, are these weapons? Surely, if Tolkien had imagined that the Dwarves woild create them, they would have logically featured or been mentioned in his works- an ancient weapon could have been mithril, like Durin's Axe. So, the Dwarves did not make them- and regardless of whether they did make them, Men cannot because the skill is far beyond them. So they shouldn't exist in the mod.

      You have some interesting points there, I must say I enjoy this discussion, since it shows me different aspects that can be considered, a topic with depth :).

      I think the way a material is used is usually more a cultural matter than the skill required: since dwarves were hardly the scholars of that world, they were much less interested in its use for carvings, even though of course they enjoyed or used the final product. They were more interested in the use in armour and weapons, the forging of which they were unmatched in, though Tolien states that "In the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor ", which makes me conclude that Elven crafts that related to the process of smithing must have been almost as good as that of the Dwarves, otherwise the sentence would not have been "even by".

      Your point on the dwarves preparing the base material for the end product is spot on however, I cannot argue with this sentence, indeed they were the supplier of the forgeable mithril. However, this does not exclude the possibility that in the final phase of making the actual weapons, it was exclusive to the Dwarves to prepare the weapons: they may have prepared the metal, but the final forming could have been done by the Elves as well, production of weapons goes through some steps and it is unclear which steps Tolkien meant. Since some of the most special blades were made by Elves (Anduril a prime example), I would assume the Elves were not relying on Dwarves anymore during the Third Age in crafting, they caught up with their earlier lack of skill. Mining is a different matter alltogether of course and clearly the preparation of the base material (in ingots?..) as well. I think based on this, both races were quite capable of making the best weapons (as end product), be it from mithril or other metals. Armour is a different matter, as indeed the Dwarves were unmatched in that, though again that does not exclude the possibility that Elves still could forge mithril armour as well (even when inferior quality compared to Dwarves).

      The other point, relating to the existense of mithril weapons: even if only Dwarves would have been able to forge, mold and “weaponize” the metal, this does not exclude them actually using it in making these weapons. Possible rationales and answers to your question why theses were not specifically mentioned: scarcity and priorities. Scarcity being the fact that mithril was so rare, that even the weapons prepared from mithril must have been quite rare, mention of Durin’s Axe exactly proving the point that these weapons DID exist, even when an axe would not be the best choice of weapon for mithril given its weight. So undisputedly there was at least one mithril weapon we know of and since an axe requires a sharp blade, a sword would make equally sense. The other point is priorities: if you have a very limited supply of something, there is a compromise what you use it for. Clearly, since the dwarves were unmatched in the skills of making armour, much more than in making weapons, their priority was in making the finest armour of mithril, rather than weapons as relatively speaking this could elevate the quality of mithril armour to a much higher level in comparison to other metal, than if we would apply same comparison of mithril weapons vs other metal weapons. They likely made conscious choices with the very little mithril they had and preferred to make armour from it. From a combat perspective it makes perfect sense: the weight of an iron chain mail for example compared to a mithril one would have made a difference of life and death in the battlefield due to the weight slowing one down and impacting stamina as well. On top, the material was even harder than iron, so a clear life-saver for battle. In comparison, using a mithril sword might not have given the same benefit, hence the clear choice to use it for armour. On top, dwarves were mostly axe users, hardly using swords. An axe clearly requires momentum and needs weight, in that aspect mithril would even have been a detriment for use in axes. The more reason for them to use it in armour and even then in very rare occasions, given its rarity.

      Getting back to the mod, one could draw the conclusion that since it was much more used in armour than in weapons for above reasons, but that we are empowered with free choice (with or without logic) as a player of the mod, why allow it to be used in weapons? For two reasons:

      1.     Not class-specific: in the mod it is available to all players, either to be mined or looted, as well as to be crafted, so it’s not restricted to dwarves, unlike in the books. This means that Men, Elves and even Orcs could use it to prepare their weapons with it and not just armour. If your conclusion is that this is definitely non-canonical (Orcs, ha!), then the question arises to what extent ANYTHING in the mod is canonical: the fact that a fictional character has the capability to just go mining ore in the Misty Mountains, Mordor or discover the jungles of Far Harad? Tolkien never made mention of people either who had skills beyond measure, from more races even.. What realism is there in forging then, by just having a forge of a faction and assuming skills that would take a lifetime to master? Except for visiting an Elven or Dwarven smith, what realism is there in preparing these materials ourselves? Or crafting anything on a crafting table for that matter? Even visiting a smith is absurd to think that they would prepare the best weapons for a mere mortal. The alignment system is an excellent concept to enable “hero” status so these options open up, but first of all the crafting of more advanced items (especially the high-tier modifiers) is hardly alignment-level related and can be achieved almost immediately, on top some weapons would never have been crafted for other than a long bloodline of kings for example. Not to speak of any option to have a mithril item crafted just like that, without being claimed (rightfully) by the dwarves who mined it or dug the tunnels for centuries.. So the fact that the mod is not class-specific on mithril (being a conscious choice for many reasons) has to mean that there should be no restriction of use of the material either. Unless mithril becomes faction-related, in which case many more things need to be restricted to make the game fully canonical, rendering open gameplay practically impossible, as only certain factions would be attractive enough to be aligned with.

      2.     Scarceness: in Middle-earth, it may have been scarce enough not to use it for weapons. In the mod, scarceness is related to playtime: the more one actively seeks mithril, the more is found. Were it limited to armour, it would seize to be incentivized very quickly, as the modifier system does not allow mithril to become overly powerful compared to iron and the only benefit it would have as armour is that it lasts longer, due to iron getting Steadfast or Tough modifiers to bring defense points to the same level as mithril. I see mithril mainly useful in the mod for weapons for this reason, less for armour, even if that would not be canonical. Like with the first point, if the conclusion is that the mod needs adapting the other materials to compensate for this, so that mithril again becomes more attractive as armour and not for weapons to make smithing canonical, then that needs a rethinking of the modifier system as a whole. And still it is not sure that it would make sense, since currently one has to put a huge amount of hours just for a single mithril item with maximum modifiers: if this were tilted in favour of armour to avoid weapons from being crafted, it would have to be an insanely expensive thing to craft a mithril weapon, possibly months of playtime for a single weapon, compared to weeks currently. Since I assume that nobody spends his life playing this game 24/7, it would practically mean that it makes no sense to have mithril weapons made at all. Which, in case we assume that that would only have been the case for reasons of scarcity and not for reasons of forced choice (i.e. that mithril weapons cannot be crafted), is by itself non-canonical.

      All in all, I think the main question (as always) is where to draw the line of canonical vs playable. Canonical can also be interpreted as realistic, with the premises of the works. If everything were canonical, then the mod would not exist, since the player would be deprived of all knowledge and abilities, except if he were Gandalf and even then he would not fit a dwarven armour, ride a boar or whatever. So I think some compromises need to be struck and some free interpretation given to the use of materials like mithril, especially if there is no black/white exclusion of its use for a specific purpose. I think the current balance is well-struck, alternative ways of allowing mithril would upset this balance even more. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it still serves quite well for something we can assume.


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    • Barangolo wrote:

      Thindithron the Great wrote:
      In regards to your points on the feasibility of a mithril sword- I am not knowledgeable enough to dispute them.

      However: Elves could not make mithril swords, unless the Dwarves had already "treated" the metal for them.

      It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim.

      The uses that Elves had for mithril, in its usual form, fall into the earlier category: beating it like copper, polishing it like glass, and generally using it for decoration- as with ithildin. The Dwarves were the only ones who could actually make it "light and yet harder than tempered steel". So, unless the Dwarves gave amounts of- let's call it "upgraded" mithril- to the Elves, which I deem unlikely, Elves were limited to the basic metal. Of course, the Dwarves did give items made of the upgraded mithril to the Elves- Bilbo’s mail shirt was going to be one such- but there are no indications that the Elves knew enough of its creation to reforge it into weapons. Besides, the Elves already could create weapons that could last for millenia, like the swords of Gondolin. It would seem an exercise in pointlessness to make a mithril sword, from the most valuable material in the world, when a steel one would serve.

      Perhaps, say, the Dwarves could have made weapons out of mithril (they would be the only ones who could do so). Where, then, are these weapons? Surely, if Tolkien had imagined that the Dwarves woild create them, they would have logically featured or been mentioned in his works- an ancient weapon could have been mithril, like Durin's Axe. So, the Dwarves did not make them- and regardless of whether they did make them, Men cannot because the skill is far beyond them. So they shouldn't exist in the mod.

      You have some interesting points there, I must say I enjoy this discussion, since it shows me different aspects that can be considered, a topic with depth :).

      I think the way a material is used is usually more a cultural matter than the skill required: since dwarves were hardly the scholars of that world, they were much less interested in its use for carvings, even though of course they enjoyed or used the final product. They were more interested in the use in armour and weapons, the forging of which they were unmatched in, though Tolien states that "In the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor ", which makes me conclude that Elven crafts that related to the process of smithing must have been almost as good as that of the Dwarves, otherwise the sentence would not have been "even by".

      Your point on the dwarves preparing the base material for the end product is spot on however, I cannot argue with this sentence, indeed they were the supplier of the forgeable mithril. However, this does not exclude the possibility that in the final phase of making the actual weapons, it was exclusive to the Dwarves to prepare the weapons: they may have prepared the metal, but the final forming could have been done by the Elves as well, production of weapons goes through some steps and it is unclear which steps Tolkien meant. Since some of the most special blades were made by Elves (Anduril a prime example), I would assume the Elves were not relying on Dwarves anymore during the Third Age in crafting, they caught up with their earlier lack of skill. Mining is a different matter alltogether of course and clearly the preparation of the base material (in ingots?..) as well. I think based on this, both races were quite capable of making the best weapons (as end product), be it from mithril or other metals. Armour is a different matter, as indeed the Dwarves were unmatched in that, though again that does not exclude the possibility that Elves still could forge mithril armour as well (even when inferior quality compared to Dwarves).

      The other point, relating to the existense of mithril weapons: even if only Dwarves would have been able to forge, mold and “weaponize” the metal, this does not exclude them actually using it in making these weapons. Possible rationales and answers to your question why theses were not specifically mentioned: scarcity and priorities. Scarcity being the fact that mithril was so rare, that even the weapons prepared from mithril must have been quite rare, mention of Durin’s Axe exactly proving the point that these weapons DID exist, even when an axe would not be the best choice of weapon for mithril given its weight. So undisputedly there was at least one mithril weapon we know of and since an axe requires a sharp blade, a sword would make equally sense. The other point is priorities: if you have a very limited supply of something, there is a compromise what you use it for. Clearly, since the dwarves were unmatched in the skills of making armour, much more than in making weapons, their priority was in making the finest armour of mithril, rather than weapons as relatively speaking this could elevate the quality of mithril armour to a much higher level in comparison to other metal, than if we would apply same comparison of mithril weapons vs other metal weapons. They likely made conscious choices with the very little mithril they had and preferred to make armour from it. From a combat perspective it makes perfect sense: the weight of an iron chain mail for example compared to a mithril one would have made a difference of life and death in the battlefield due to the weight slowing one down and impacting stamina as well. On top, the material was even harder than iron, so a clear life-saver for battle. In comparison, using a mithril sword might not have given the same benefit, hence the clear choice to use it for armour. On top, dwarves were mostly axe users, hardly using swords. An axe clearly requires momentum and needs weight, in that aspect mithril would even have been a detriment for use in axes. The more reason for them to use it in armour and even then in very rare occasions, given its rarity.

      Getting back to the mod, one could draw the conclusion that since it was much more used in armour than in weapons for above reasons, but that we are empowered with free choice (with or without logic) as a player of the mod, why allow it to be used in weapons? For two reasons:

      1.     Not class-specific: in the mod it is available to all players, either to be mined or looted, as well as to be crafted, so it’s not restricted to dwarves, unlike in the books. This means that Men, Elves and even Orcs could use it to prepare their weapons with it and not just armour. If your conclusion is that this is definitely non-canonical (Orcs, ha!), then the question arises to what extent ANYTHING in the mod is canonical: the fact that a fictional character has the capability to just go mining ore in the Misty Mountains, Mordor or discover the jungles of Far Harad? Tolkien never made mention of people either who had skills beyond measure, from more races even.. What realism is there in forging then, by just having a forge of a faction and assuming skills that would take a lifetime to master? Except for visiting an Elven or Dwarven smith, what realism is there in preparing these materials ourselves? Or crafting anything on a crafting table for that matter? Even visiting a smith is absurd to think that they would prepare the best weapons for a mere mortal. The alignment system is an excellent concept to enable “hero” status so these options open up, but first of all the crafting of more advanced items (especially the high-tier modifiers) is hardly alignment-level related and can be achieved almost immediately, on top some weapons would never have been crafted for other than a long bloodline of kings for example. Not to speak of any option to have a mithril item crafted just like that, without being claimed (rightfully) by the dwarves who mined it or dug the tunnels for centuries.. So the fact that the mod is not class-specific on mithril (being a conscious choice for many reasons) has to mean that there should be no restriction of use of the material either. Unless mithril becomes faction-related, in which case many more things need to be restricted to make the game fully canonical, rendering open gameplay practically impossible, as only certain factions would be attractive enough to be aligned with.

      2.     Scarceness: in Middle-earth, it may have been scarce enough not to use it for weapons. In the mod, scarceness is related to playtime: the more one actively seeks mithril, the more is found. Were it limited to armour, it would seize to be incentivized very quickly, as the modifier system does not allow mithril to become overly powerful compared to iron and the only benefit it would have as armour is that it lasts longer, due to iron getting Steadfast or Tough modifiers to bring defense points to the same level as mithril. I see mithril mainly useful in the mod for weapons for this reason, less for armour, even if that would not be canonical. Like with the first point, if the conclusion is that the mod needs adapting the other materials to compensate for this, so that mithril again becomes more attractive as armour and not for weapons to make smithing canonical, then that needs a rethinking of the modifier system as a whole. And still it is not sure that it would make sense, since currently one has to put a huge amount of hours just for a single mithril item with maximum modifiers: if this were tilted in favour of armour to avoid weapons from being crafted, it would have to be an insanely expensive thing to craft a mithril weapon, possibly months of playtime for a single weapon, compared to weeks currently. Since I assume that nobody spends his life playing this game 24/7, it would practically mean that it makes no sense to have mithril weapons made at all. Which, in case we assume that that would only have been the case for reasons of scarcity and not for reasons of forced choice (i.e. that mithril weapons cannot be crafted), is by itself non-canonical.

      All in all, I think the main question (as always) is where to draw the line of canonical vs playable. Canonical can also be interpreted as realistic, with the premises of the works. If everything were canonical, then the mod would not exist, since the player would be deprived of all knowledge and abilities, except if he were Gandalf and even then he would not fit a dwarven armour, ride a boar or whatever. So I think some compromises need to be struck and some free interpretation given to the use of materials like mithril, especially if there is no black/white exclusion of its use for a specific purpose. I think the current balance is well-struck, alternative ways of allowing mithril would upset this balance even more. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it still serves quite well for something we can assume.


      You say, "I think based on this, both races were quite capable of making the best weapons (as end product), be it from mithril or other metals." But you haven't told me how the Elves actually got the "upgraded" mithril from the Dwarves. As far as we know, the only way that they mught have obtained it is in mithril armour sold to them by the Dwarves. It doesn't stand to reason that they would melt these down to make weapons; mithril is far more useful as armour, and the stuff is so rare and valuable that they wouldn't have enough surplus to make weapons.

      On the next point, I take it that you misunderstood what I said earlier. Durin's Axe was not said to be made of mithril- what I meant was that if it was, then that would lend credibility to your argument. The rest of your paragraph seems like you're almost arguing for me. All of those are reasons why Dwarves would not use mithril weapons.

      Realism =/= canon. They are both noble goals in the mod, but the mod does not have to be realistic in every way to follow the lore accurately. And yes; a fictional character could mine in the Misties and travel to Far Harad. The first is a bit of a no-brainer (though admittedly the real thing would take a lot more hard work than in the mod) and the second was probably completed by both Aragorn and Gandalf- it's just a matter of travelling. Forging, now that is not a realistic feature. Neither is crafting, alignment, fast travel, or most of the mod's features. However, these are essential so we can actually play the game without it being unnecessarily complicated- mithril weapons are not. As for your point on faction-specific powerful items being bad- I don't think that, in an ideal lore-based mod, Dwarves would be able to craft any weapons or armour of mithril. Items of mithril would be loot, not craftable things, or at least it would be so rare that it would be unfeasible to craft much of it. Far more accurate, and not really favouring a specific faction.

      Again, canonical does not mean realistic, so I disagree with your last paragraph.

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