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  • Thid Age 1975: In Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.

    They (éothéod) sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains.

    The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A

    (The mod started at T.A.3001, 1,026 years after that not a man nor an orc of Angmar remained.)

    For anyone who think canon will ruin the fun of things, please read my suggestion. I know that some evil players may complain, and I will show you how useless and functional overlapping it is in the following paragraphs. Since Angmar the faction isn't supported to exist, I have a better solution which can make the mod more canonical, in balance and fun.

    The NPCs of Angmar

    Angmar is completely dead in the end of Third Age, and trolls are the only remnants for sure. Therefore, Angmar the faction should be renamed to Trolls. Trolls the faction will like Fangorn the faction of Free Folks. You will have a fun and free way to summon and hire trolls and hill-trolls like summoning Huorn, and a more interesting way to hire them as well.

    • Remove Angmar Orcs and Angmar Wargs

    Angmar Orcs (including archers and bombardiers) are copies of Mordor Orcs having nothing special, so do wargs and warg bombardiers. If you want them to be something special, you will have to buff them. Since they aren't supported to exist, the best solution to them is removing them.

    You can find Gundabad Orc chieftain in nearly all biomes of Eriador providing both an unit of cheaper Orcs and an unit of stronger Orcs than Angmar Orc chieftain.

    • Remove the Hillmen of Rhudaur
    No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end.

    –Aragon in The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

    Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

    The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

    They also shouldn't exist and they are just a copy of Hill-men. By the way, the correct way to spell it is Hill-men in both the book and grammar, and Hill-men are most often referred to as Dunlendings. For people who may think their bone armours are cool, Dunlending Berserkers wear suits of bone armours.

    The blocks, structures, equipment of Angmar

    Remove the banner of Angmar, Angmar Crafting Table, Amgmar Warg pits.

    Make Rhudaur Hillman Houses to a more ruin version.

    Add abandoned or ruined Rhudaur castles in the hilly region (Lone-lands Hills biomes and Weather Hills in the f) of the Lone-lands. There were made out of Angmar Bricks and abandoned for more than 1,026 years.

    Keep Angmar armour and Angmar equipment, there can be obtained by looting chests in ruined Rhudaur houses, ruined Rhudaur castles, Orc dungeons in Eriador, as well as troll's caves. Their existence is similar to Gondolinian equipment and Arnorian, Numenorean equipment in the future.

    The titles of Angmar

    Move "Hillman" title to Dunland. As I said before, Hill-men are most often referred to as Dunlendings. Add the "Hill-troll" title and remove the "Angmar Orc" title.

    invasion

    • For Angmar, Just like Utumno, a dead faction makes no invasion.

    Since except trolls and hill-trolls are removed, all Angmar invasion should also be removed. Except lore seasons, let's take a look on balance:

    These people start invasions on Eriador now:

    Free Folks:
    The spawns of evil:
    1. The rangers of the North
    1. Gundabad
    2. Gundabad Wargs
    3. Angmar
    4. Angmar Wargs
    5. The Hill-men of Rhudaur

    This is quite unbalance, isn't? When Angmar invasions are removed according to the canon, it will be more balance.

    For fun, there could be troll raids in Trollshaws, Ettenmoors and Coldfells in nights like Shirriff raids.

    • This will fit in with both gameplay factors and canon: Evil are stronger in the East and weaker in the West. By the end of Third Age, Eriador including Lone-lands was a quite peaceful and safe land comparing Rhovanion. The main problems were trolls and Orcs of Misty Mountains.

    There may have someone who think this will waste effect of Mevans, I say that the codes of Orcs are highly reused in the mod. They even share almost same speechbanks. We don't need all same plain Orcs, wargs or hill-men when they are all available in same place.

    For balance, those removed features will and should move to Dol Guldur. More information are shown in the following table and cooler stuffs are in the post Southern Mirkwood and Dol Guldur.

    Dol Guldur:
    • Strengthen

    "In 3018 these attacked the Woodland Realm, as well as Dale, Erebor and Lórien", I know that the mod begins in 3001, but our alignment system is based on the War of Ring in 3018 (see Gondor, see Rohan). Thus slaying the spawns of Dol Guldur should also gain Durin's Folk and Dale's alignment, vice versa.

    • They should widely and commonly active or invade entire Rhovanion including Wilderland, Brown Lands, Dead Marshes, East Bight, Emyn Muil, Erebor, Field of Celebrant, Gladden Fields; Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Mirkwood, Vales of Anduin.
    • The Species of invasions

    Let Mevans add Olog-hai (Mirkwood), Spiders invasion! It would be fun!

    • The distributing of invasions

    Hobbits were escaping from the growing terror of Dol Guldur in Vales of Anduin years ago. Plus Dol Guldur was expanding its power and searching the Ring, the size of invader's troops could be same as current insane invasion spawning rate in Lone-lands. Each Dol Guldur invasion could spawn a crowd with Gundabad in Vales of Anduin, Wilderland, etc.

    • Added Dol Guldur Orc Bombardiers

    Trolls

    The actions with trolls Alignment requirement
    tickle trolls and hill-trolls by right-clicking them with a feather to cause them sneezing +100
    Hire a troll by right-clicking on him with 3-5 cooked meats. +200
    Hire a hill-troll by right-clicking on him with 3-5 cooked meats. +300
    Summon and hire a troll by right-clicking on a troll statue with a piece of meat. +400
    Summon and hire a hill-troll by right-clicking on a troll statue with a piece of meat. +500

    Hiring trolls

    Trolls the faction is similar to Fangorn the faction that you can hire trolls for free. Hiring trolls form Orc chieftains is ridiculous, so I come out two ideas for it. I hope all of them will be added to the mod, because they are fun and coding friendly.

    The first way: It's kind of taming Gollum, you hire a troll by right-clicking on him with 3-5 cooked meats. They only eat cooked meat which means that you can't feed them with raw meats, breads, rotten flesh.

    In the hiring process them may say something like below:

    • "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer!"
    • "Never a blinking bit of manflesh have we had for long enough!"

    The second way: It's kind of hiring huorns, you summon and hire a troll by right-clicking on a troll statue with a piece of meat at night. Troll statues should be rarely generated in Trollshaws, Coldfells and Ettenmoors randomly.

    Crafting table & mini-quests

    No troll's crafting table. Thare are really too stupid to use crafting tables. Anyway, add troll's crafting table after Ents get one.

    Trolls' mini-quests are in demand, as well as Ents'.

    Troll's Cave

    Troll hoards are already hard to find to me, but when I find one, there are always many useless items inside the chests. Maybe it should be more challenging. The stone rooms in Zelda mod are stunning to me. The Troll's Cave and its key are certainly canon, and it would worthy enough to add them.

    The Tolkien Gateway has an article on:

    Troll's Cave

    Stone doors: Since beta 27, we got gates. The door of a Troll's cave really should be a gate in order to let a troll in or out, but there were called "a big door of stone" anyway. A stone door could be crafted on Angmar or Gundabad crafting tables, and its mechanics same as gates. However it looks like a Dwarven door but it don't glow at night. Along with Keys for gates, this kinds of door could only open by a largish key. Certainly, a largish key would be dropped by a troll in a certain rate.

    Then I'd like to talk about the protection of caves. Previously I mentioned Zelda mod, the hoards are well protected in that mod, and it is different from banner protection (btw, I think trolls won't use banners of Angmar for sure.) Their mechanics is the hoard rooms would always be protected until you fit the key into the key-hole. This is a very good idea.

    Of the inside of a troll's cave. The toll's caves is a place for trolls to hide from the sun in. They don't just guard the hoards, and the caves are kinds of their bedrooms during daytime. So there should have:

    1. Barrels of ale are mentioned in The Hobbit. There should some empty barrel, but one barrel of ale which was still full.
    2. Plates with food. The company found plenty of food in the cave. Food would be bread, rabbit meats and mutton.
    3. Waste Blocks on the ground. There were bones on the floor and a nasty smell was in the air, so Waste Blocks would be a perfect choice as floor.
    4. More coins in the caves. There are pots full of gold coins standing in a corner. Since there are no pots nor gold coins in the mod, I think more silver coins in chests would be nice.
    5. Gondolinian equipment instead of High Elven equipment. They found Gondolinian equipment rather than equipment which used by Elves from Third Age. Troll's Caves would be hard to find and rare to get the key, it would be okay with Godolinian equipment.

    Renaming

    Of Mountain Troll They should rename as Hill-trolls. Mountain Trolls only appear once in The Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor, and even our wiki quoted this section:

    Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

    The Return of the King, The Siege of Gondor


    Arador was taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain; and Arathorn became Chieftain of the Dúnedain.

    The Lord of the Ring, Appendix A


    So Mountain Trolls are more likely belong to Mordor rather than Angmar. Hill-trolls are trolls that live in small groups or alone and commonly live in the Ettenmoors or Angmar, some heading down to the Trollshaws for the winter. Since Mountain-trolls have less content, and we even don't where they inhabited, they should be rename as Hill-trolls and true Mountain-trolls should be add in far future, due to they are less important.

    Ruffians

    2953: He (Saruman) soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.

    The Lord of the Ring, Appendix B

    The Tolkien Gateway has an article on:

    Ruffians

    The Ruffians were a group of Men from near Isengard.

    Saruman kept enough wisdom not to trust his Orcs. He had Men to guard his gates: some of his most faithful servants, I suppose.

    –Merry in The Two Towers, Flotsam and Jetsam


    They are the most trust people by Saruman. They are scoundrel and deceitful who betrayed both Dunlendings and Rohan and only loyal to Saruman. They will use the skin of the Hill-men of Rhudaur. "Normal, non-warrior hillmen (men of Numenor) can be slain by hobbit sheriffs in one-on-one combat," Catfish said. I thought it's realistic for ruffians. You really shouldn't underestimate hobbits, because they actually have archers and defeated more than one hundred ruffians. Ruffians can spawn in Bree and the Southfarthing in a rate of 1/100.

    Updated for Gorbag: As a Rhudaur hill-men alternative, they will spawn with looted stuff like former Rhudaur hill-men, Gundabad Orcs, and Isengard Snagae. You can hire the armoured ones and unarmoured ones in Nan Curunír. Due to they are the most trusted followers of Saruman, they won't have sub-faction. They will replace unarmoured Dunlendings in Nan Curunír as well.

    Farthings

    I posted it here as a comment and re-post it now. The most complete information collection of farthings:

    • Northfarthing
      • This farthing grows barley to make beer, and it produced the best beer ever. When barley is introduced into the mod, there will be magnificent barley fields like Dorwinion vineyard. It will included the Shire Moor.
    • Southfarthing
      • There will be Overbourn Marshes (Shire Marshes) along the River Brandywine. Southfarthing featured Pipe-weed farms growing specially varieties of Pipe-weed now known as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, and Southern Star. This farthing also have vineyards that make heady wine. By the way, Saruman kept agents in Bree and the Southfarthing after T.A.2953 (the mod started in T.A. 3001).
    • Westfarthing
      • Westfarthing was the center of Hobbit "authority". its western border were the Far Downs where is the nameless Eriador Downs between Tower Hills and White Downs. White Downs should be completely delimited to the Shire and added Hobbits into this biome as the capital Michel Delving was located here.
    • Eastfarthing
      • This district also has breweries and barley fields. The Hobbits of the quarter were rather large and heavy-legged, and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. There are fields of the Marish growing mushroom in the farthing.

    A new struture:

    • Three-Farthing Stone: It was a stone by the side of the East Road that marked the point where the borders of the Eastfarthing, Westfarthing and Southfarthing of the Shire came together.

    A new type of unit:

    • Hobbit Archer

    [Updated] The Alignment of Gundabad

    Since there are only trolls in the Trolls faction and more interactions between factions can bring more fun, plus canonical reasons and balance, the alignment of Gundabad should relate to Mordor and even Isengard.

    Factions that losing alignment from killing Gundabad Factions that gaining alignment from killing Gundabad
    • Gundabad
    • Trolls
    • Dol Guldur
    • Rangers
    • High ELves
    • Blue Mountains
    • Durin's Folk
    • Lothlórien
    • Woodland Realm

    This isn't in balance.

    But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. [...] The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien.

    [...] All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion.

    The Fellowship of the Ring, The Breaking of the Fellowship

    Frodo saw that every the power of the Dark Lore was in motion including Gundabad, the Orcs of Misty Mountains. Gundabad and Moria may have their own lord, but they followed the leadership of Sauron as always. Therefore, killing Gundabad should lower Mordor alignment, and vice versa.

    The Orcs of Isengard are bred by Saruman mixing the Orcs of Misty Mountains and Denlendings, so Isengard should care Gundabad as well.

    [Updated] Feeding a horse berries

    Berries can be used to feed horse. It will be nice if make berries as an equivalent of sugar, and that will bring us another reason to farm berries.

    As we could see, the improvements on trolls and farthings are both interesting. Someone argued that strictly canon are ruining the fun of things, but I see it differently: when the creater added something, there will always have fans for that thing and even when the thing should exist anyone. They also appeal for more complex contents which may the time from the creator adding some well described things. The removal of those who have clear ultimate fate of the utterly defeated really is best solution, and I hold the same opinion on Balchoth. I think that Stick to canon things wherever possible, but invent non-canon things if they are needed to fill gaps in the canon means we make up empty blanks of LotR rather than closures. You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers. Moreover, trolls would not be the focus of an aspect of an update with thousand "living deads" are requiring to be more complex. Seriously, we should let the deceased rest in peace rather than adding butchers for them. I know there will be huge resistance, but I'm speaking my voice for those things we missed.

    Edit: Mountain Troll -> Hill-troll

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    • i understand and i agree.

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    • TBH I don,t like to see Angmar removed but You have come up with great come backs so I don,t bother fighting back.

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    • This is incredible. We now need a featured suggestions topic page...

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    • I think that angmar is a dead faction, however, there should still be some, as the quote you put up said they defeated angmar. To defeat something you have to have it first. It should still be there, but fewer spawn rates probably. BUT since this is a mod that needs balance, i think it is good, otherwise evil would just be destroyed

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    • Im pretty sure your farthing info isn't original.

      In fact, I think that it is almost exactly the same as one of the other posts on hobbit farthing improvement.

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    • The Angmar now is not strong at all.Wargs are weaker than Gundabad.No uruks.Weak goblins.Worse weapon and worse armour.And Hillmen?They are even not better thangoblins.If there are no trolls in Angmar,Angmar even can't beat Dale!

      All in all,I'll give out both my kudo and my stupid tougue.

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    • Lol my brother died in angmar with mithril armor and a gondolinian sword with sharpness 5. Angmar is too strong.

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    • LordBeorn366 wrote: Im pretty sure your farthing info isn't original.

      In fact, I think that it is almost exactly the same as one of the other posts on hobbit farthing improvement.

      Of course there aren't original. There are written by Tolkien and I collected them all in The Lord of the Ring. I posted it here as a comment and it never be posted as a suggestion.

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    • Codebreaker 2100 wrote:
      Lol my brother died in angmar with mithril armor and a gondolinian sword with sharpness 5. Angmar is too strong.

      So ask Mystery for his lost armour and sword XD Swords cannot deal with Trolls well.

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    • TheblueWizard wrote: I think that angmar is a dead faction, however, there should still be some, as the quote you put up said they defeated angmar. To defeat something you have to have it first. It should still be there, but fewer spawn rates probably. BUT since this is a mod that needs balance, i think it is good, otherwise evil would just be destroyed

      The mod started at T.A.3001, 1,026 years after that not a man nor an orc of Angmar remained.

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    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      LordBeorn366 wrote: Im pretty sure your farthing info isn't original.

      In fact, I think that it is almost exactly the same as one of the other posts on hobbit farthing improvement.

      Of course there aren't original. There are written by Tolkien and I collected them all in The Lord of the Ring. I posted it here as a comment and it never be posted as a suggestion.

      Ah, I see. I knew I had read the farthings suggestion before, but I didn't remember who.

      Kudos to you!!

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    • BronzeAir wrote: The Angmar now is not strong at all.Wargs are weaker than Gundabad.No uruks.Weak goblins.Worse weapon and worse armour.And Hillmen?They are even not better thangoblins.If there are no trolls in Angmar,Angmar even can't beat Dale!

      All in all,I'll give out both my kudo and my stupid tougue.

      Why do you think that the Kingdom of Dale is the bottom line of being a faction? That's one of unrealistic things in the mod, too. I'm planning to rectify that for a while.

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    • Ok......take it easy,Li........Leme see,maybe moredain is the bottom?

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    • I love all of it, xcept one thing, I beg you don't make mordor and isengard care about gundabad, because for goodness sakes that means every "non-human" evil faction technically loves eachother meaning you can't try and maintain some relationships if you're over-all a good guy (I am talking about Isengard on this instance, since I've murdered far too many angmarians for mordor to ever like me again... humbug)

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    • Angmar will almost certainly not be removed. It is very possible that wandering bands of orcs and wargs were able to loot holds of Angmar supplies and attempt to reclaim the area, which would be unoccupied and able to equip an army. As such, the current orcs are essentially just another band of Gundabad orcs with old gear. As for the hillmen, I doubt that the entire race of Hillmen was exterminated. They easily could have lived on and come back to (semi) power over a thousand years.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (admin) comlink 19:46, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

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    • Unless Mevans likes the idea. :P

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    • Well, it's been brought to him several times before and shot down. :-P

      Gen. Grievous1138 (admin) comlink 19:54, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

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    • Yay! To those of you that think agmar should be removed the spawn rate of npcs there will most likely be reduced in beta 29.

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    • Hopefully strongly reduced...

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    • Not too strongly, hopefully. The suggestion to make NPC's rarer though got endorsed so it'll happen moderately for most factions.

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    • They'll be reduced, I shall see to it. I agree that Angmar should not have explosives, as well.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (admin) comlink 22:26, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

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    • High King Ithilion wrote: Hopefully strongly reduced...

      Again, not nearly as strongly as Rangers of the North.

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    • I could see Angmar spawn rates being nerfed, and explosives being removed, but removing Angmar all together? The witch king abided in and corrupted that land for long enough that it is not at all unlikely that some evil remained, certainly more likely then Utumno surviving. Good already has way more factions then evil, to remove it would be to completely throw off the balance of the mod. You can say that the mod shouldn't be balance based, but lore based, but for the mod to be lore based Mordor would have to be far greater then all other factions combined. My views on "Lore vs. Balance" may be read in greater detail here.

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    • I would rather just havê some few survivors who were strong enough to resist the kingdom's Downfall. Great Orcs forsaken who had to remain alone with rusty yet fine armor and weapons, like Utumno Orcs, they would still remmeber of their former leaders, but with time their minds would have driven closer to insanity, they would be wilder than most orcs and have an inquisitive never ending will of revenge.

      Stats below:

      Name: Angmar Uruk Remaint..? Someone long ago told me Angmar Uruks would come one day..

      Health: 26HP

      Armor: 8.5 armor bars, it would be grey, dark grey, with some ripped off black clothing, some cracks on the steel, some thorns and spikes, a few would be broken, the helmet could have a special crist.

      Weaponry: They would pretty much have all angmar weapons, doing as many dmg as gundabad ones do, instead of being greenish they would look old and greyish, from the long time.

      Crafting: Angmar Crafting table + uruk ingots

      Extra: those orcs would be faster, like a Uruk Hai Beserker is, they would be extremely rare even in angmar and spawn either on Ruined structures or over the biome in groups from 3 to 8 Uruks. Their Invasions would be extremely rare, like raids to keep their survival in the dead frost land.

      The HillMen of Rhudaur should be kept in houses hidden on the etternoons, coldfells and angmar only, the ones in the Lone Lands and other should be removed, they would only raid, not invade and be rare, only being found in large groups at towns or houses Ruined Rhuadaur structures would spawn in their past land.


      PS: if you find this idea good perhaps you could add some parts to your main post, Wagaz? I believe Remaints of Angmar would be a better name for the Fac, that if some Uruks and HillMen of Rhuadaur are kept too.


      In períods of harshness the weak die and the strong stand.

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    • ok making a troll sneeze should NOT require alignment

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    • Also, I suggested a fair amount of the Troll stuff, some of it twice.

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    • This perspective upon Angmar as a faction is wonderful. However, unfortunately I doubt such features will be removed as Mevans has decided not to do so on several occasions. Though perhaps with the release of Public Beta 29, some slight changes shall be brought about concerning said Faction.

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    • Wait.. you right-click on a troll statue with a piece of meat to summon a troll? And to summon a hill-troll? It seems like the mechanics should be different. Also, I am against hiring hill-trolls, if you want it to be like Fangorn, as that is like hiring ents. Although, I suppose, hill-trolls can't take down ents. They do, however, have a ranged attack which balances it out.

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    • Recneps wrote: Wait.. you right-click on a troll statue with a piece of meat to summon a troll? And to summon a hill-troll? It seems like the mechanics should be different. Also, I am against hiring hill-trolls, if you want it to be like Fangorn, as that is like hiring ents. Although, I suppose, hill-trolls can't take down ents. They do, however, have a ranged attack which balances it out.

      Hill-trolls have a fatal disadvantage that turns them into stone under sunlight, so I think hill-trolls are like huorns, too. Besides, Olog-hai are way stronger than hill-trolls, but they cannot fight against Ents, either.

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    • If Angmar was removed Gundabad will lose a ally lol.

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    • I think it's safe to say that Angmar will not be removed but most likely debuffed.

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    • Thorough piece of work Wargaz. My compliments.

      Unfortunately you combined a number of unrelated suggestions that may be all worthy of having a dedicated thread. Please consider to take out one or two and give them the love they deserve. ;)

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    • We should not remove of Angmar but just debuf it.

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    • I think that just giving one to five pieces of meat to a troll would be to op. You could build pretty big army cheap.

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    • Yeah, because a medium patch of flowers in Fangorn Forest equaling 76 more-powerful-then-troll hurons isn´t cheap.

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    • I really don't like the way comments like this usually lead... but ologs are significantly more powerful that huorns, and huorns are such a pain to hire.

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    • Ologs, cost two stacks of coins a piece. Assuming that an olog could kill two huorns, (they can´t, I´ve tested it,) it would cost an evil player 4,560 coins in ologs to kill 1 medium patch of flowers worth of huorns.

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    • However, ologs have an AoE attack, which makes them hit 15 some units at a time. This means that 2 ologs can easily beat more than 4 huorns because of how units clump together to attack the first thing they see. And 4,500 coins isn't that much if you know how to get it...

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    • Nor is a medium patch of flowers, and I will test 2 ologs vs. 4 huorns.

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    • Trees runs faster and they have strong armour than ologs.

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    • Wargaz cc
      Wargaz cc removed this reply because:
      useless
      17:00, May 21, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Catfishperson wrote: I could see Angmar spawn rates being nerfed, and explosives being removed, but removing Angmar all together? The witch king abided in and corrupted that land for long enough that it is not at all unlikely that some evil remained, certainly more likely then Utumno surviving. Good already has way more factions then evil, to remove it would be to completely throw off the balance of the mod. You can say that the mod shouldn't be balance based, but lore based, but for the mod to be lore based Mordor would have to be far greater then all other factions combined. My views on "Lore vs. Balance" may be read in greater detail here.

      My point isn't the removal of Angmar, and it's the Trolls faction replacing Anmgar. Trolls rule! Fangorn doesn't rule by any Elf or Man, does it?

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    • Celeborn of Lothlorien wrote: I love all of it, xcept one thing, I beg you don't make mordor and isengard care about gundabad, because for goodness sakes that means every "non-human" evil faction technically loves eachother meaning you can't try and maintain some relationships if you're over-all a good guy (I am talking about Isengard on this instance, since I've murdered far too many angmarians for mordor to ever like me again... humbug)

      Technically, by the time of the War of the Ring, the Orcs of the Mountains though permanently depleted, reclaimed Moria but fell under the command of Sauron and Saruman.

      But in the mod, it seems like they have completely no relationship with Mordor or Isengard!

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    • Gen. Grievous1138 wrote: As for the hillmen, I doubt that the entire race of Hillmen was exterminated. They easily could have lived on and come back to (semi) power over a thousand years.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (admin) comlink 19:46, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

      No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end.

      –Aragon in The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Added a quotation.

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    • MysteryFTW wrote: If Angmar was removed Gundabad will lose a ally lol.

      They will still have Trolls the faction.

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    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      Catfishperson wrote: I could see Angmar spawn rates being nerfed, and explosives being removed, but removing Angmar all together? The witch king abided in and corrupted that land for long enough that it is not at all unlikely that some evil remained, certainly more likely then Utumno surviving. Good already has way more factions then evil, to remove it would be to completely throw off the balance of the mod. You can say that the mod shouldn't be balance based, but lore based, but for the mod to be lore based Mordor would have to be far greater then all other factions combined. My views on "Lore vs. Balance" may be read in greater detail here.

      My point isn't the removal of Angmar, and it's the Trolls faction replacing Anmgar. Trolls rule! Fangorn doesn't rule by any Elf or Man, does it?

      There is already an active thread on that.

        Loading editor
    • Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

        Loading editor
    • Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.

        Loading editor
    • It,s not going to be a will it may be replaced by Trolls

        Loading editor
    • As one of the "real" rulers of Angmar,Mystery felt nervous.

        Loading editor
    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea

        Loading editor
    • AlteOgre
      AlteOgre removed this reply because:
      Needless post.
      17:54, May 25, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea

      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!

        Loading editor
    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:


      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea
      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!


      Now, its great :) thank you Wargaz, you will now get your earned Kudo! Will these be hired on a normal uruk chiefthain or on a ruffian commander? If they would be hired on the ruffian commander, a banner bearer (with the isengard banner) would also makes sence :)

        Loading editor
    • Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:


      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea
      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!


      Now, its great :) thank you Wargaz, you will now get your earned Kudo! Will these be hired on a normal uruk chiefthain or on a ruffian commander? If they would be hired on the ruffian commander, a banner bearer (with the isengard banner) would also makes sence :)

      Maybe you can directly hire them from Saurman XD

        Loading editor
    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:


      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea
      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!

      Now, its great :) thank you Wargaz, you will now get your earned Kudo! Will these be hired on a normal uruk chiefthain or on a ruffian commander? If they would be hired on the ruffian commander, a banner bearer (with the isengard banner) would also makes sence :)
      Maybe you can directly hire them from Saurman XD


      XD, but for real, who should you hire them?

        Loading editor
    • I would immidiatelly terminate people that say that strictly cannon would ruin the fun, for without it the mod would mean nothing...

        Loading editor
    • Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:


      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea
      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!

      Now, its great :) thank you Wargaz, you will now get your earned Kudo! Will these be hired on a normal uruk chiefthain or on a ruffian commander? If they would be hired on the ruffian commander, a banner bearer (with the isengard banner) would also makes sence :)
      Maybe you can directly hire them from Saurman XD


      XD, but for real, who should you hire them?

      Ruffian chieftains, I suppose?

        Loading editor
    • Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:

      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:


      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote:



      Wargaz cc wrote:

      Gorbag12 wrote: Angmar shouldt removed. Only their soawn rate should be increased and these shouldt do invasions (maybe only very, very rare in lone lands, coldfells and ettenmors). Some Hillmen still remain and after thousand years its logic that these are more populated. I also dont thinthinkt it would be romoved, as i said only weaker, i dont think mevans spend hours and hours to code and gruk to texture to remove them later. Angmar is cool and should stay. (But i agree with the hobbit and ruffian things)

      Angmar won't be removed, and it will be replaced by Trolls the faction. We know that Free folks got Fangorn that only populated by Ents and Huorns. For balance, canon, realistic, evil side should have Trolls the faction which only populated by Trolls.

      "Hillmen still remain and after thousand years" There are many quotes can veto your untenable statement, and I will re-post them here again:

      ‘Who lives in this land?’ he asked. ‘And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?’

      ‘No!’ said Strider. ‘Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them.’

      The Fellowship of the Ring, Flight to the Ford

      Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

      The Hobbit, Roast Mutton

      You see, a boisterous Lone-lands isn't only non-canon, but also illogical: Lone-lands won't be LONE with tons of Rhudaurers.


      With the removing of angmar orcs and wargs can i live (but as grievous said it is really lickely that some still remain) but i would really miss the hillmen, because they arent a simply copy of the hillmens, they are some different, one example is: These wear looted stuff. If you have a Idea, how a hillmen alternative would work (like armored ruffians, a ruffian subfaction for isengart) and show me these, i will give you a kudo and suport your Idea
      Check "Updated for Gorbag" in Ruffians section. Actually, you make a good point. Thank you!

      Now, its great :) thank you Wargaz, you will now get your earned Kudo! Will these be hired on a normal uruk chiefthain or on a ruffian commander? If they would be hired on the ruffian commander, a banner bearer (with the isengard banner) would also makes sence :)
      Maybe you can directly hire them from Saurman XD

      XD, but for real, who should you hire them?
      Ruffian chieftains, I suppose?


      Yeah, would do more sence and banner bearers

        Loading editor
    • AlteOgre
      AlteOgre removed this reply because:
      ...
      17:55, May 25, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • AlteOgre
      AlteOgre removed this reply because:
      Needless reply to meaningless post.
      17:55, May 25, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • How about gundabad and angmar combine into one big faction, renamed something like the "Orcs of the North" with Gundabad and Angmar being subfactions of the larger faction. While also reducing the angmar orcs spawnrate but buffing them to become a super unit of the faction like black uruks of sorts. 

        Loading editor
    • AlteOgre
      AlteOgre removed this reply because:
      Needless post.
      03:50, August 21, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Yeah.. Necropost, and made worse by the fact that Mevans has specifically said, in great length and detail, that he will not remove the Angmar faction. No one else should post, and this thread should be closed.

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    • Recneps wrote: Yeah.. Necropost, and made worse by the fact that Mevans has specifically said, in great length and detail, that he will not remove the Angmar faction. No one else should post, and this thread should be closed.

      Still, it was quite a nice idea...

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    • i like angmar as is... this should really be closed

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    • Elfmanpersonthing wrote: i like angmar as is... this should really be closed

      Please note that continuing discussion far after conversation has subsided on an [Endorsed] Thread is not forbidden!

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    • War Pig1237 wrote:

      Elfmanpersonthing wrote: i like angmar as is... this should really be closed

      Please note that continuing discussion far after conversation has subsided on an [Endorsed] Thread is not forbidden!

      But hasnt mevans said that angmar ill be never removed?

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    • Yes, gorbag, but endorsement is purely decided by the wiki members. A player could suggest "pls ad gandulf and u sumon by trow harden mithrel blok in burnnig oyl" and, in theory, get it endorsed..

      That said, everyone stop posting. This thread is outdated and useless, and so we should stop bringing it back.

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    • Ehm, afaic, only Mevans or a representative of the mod team can determine whether a thread has ever become useless. That's not up to us.

        Loading editor
    • I honestly don't think removing Angmar will do anything too good... There's quite a few honest Angmar players out there that would be quite upset if their faction got removed (their faction got huge blows in the past)

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
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