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  • Gen. Grievous1138
    Gen. Grievous1138 closed this thread because:
    Orders from Mevans,
    01:48, February 2, 2017

    I sent a request last night for the wikia Discussions feature to be activated for our wiki. My request was accepted, and we now have discussions, found here.

    This feature is designed to be a replacement for the current forum feature that wikia has. New wiki's no longer come with a forum, and wikia is working on porting all old forum threads to discussions. That way none of the important information contained here is lost when the forums are removed.

    I requested this feature so that the conversion from forums to discussions will be more gradual and so that we can have a bit more control over what is going on. I would like you all to let me know what you think about this, and suggestions on how we should implement this new feature.

    Thanks for reading, Sam.

    SamwiseFilmore
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    • ( I liked the forums...

       

      RingRing9Of9fPower |Send me some cookies! :)

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    • This looks unwieldy and a bit of a pain to use... is the switchover required?

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:07, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Well, you could move over to my forum. Its URL is kind of messed up, but I think it's at least as good as the wiki forums. Here's the URL:

      HERE

      23:14, January 31, 2017 (UTC)
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    • Gen. Grievous1138
      Gen. Grievous1138 removed this reply because:
      23:14, January 31, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • We still have the forums for now. Sam, please consult with the team next time. The mess known as discussions was listed as one of the pros for leaving Wikia when that was up in the air...

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 23:17, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

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    • If you OPPOSE the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:35, January 31, 2017 (UTC)

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    • High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?

        Loading editor
    • If you ever want to port forums to another website, Lefora is a really nice free site.

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?

      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?

      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?

      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

      I could even mess your "polls" up by kudoing both...

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?
      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

      Contributors cannot kudos posts, so that rules them out. And we know many of the Wiki alts, so it wouldn't matter if they kudosed it because we'd recognize them as not being regular users.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:39, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?

      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

      If I didn't value secrecy I would have kudosed that with my horde of alts.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 01:08, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?
      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

      If I didn't value secrecy I would have kudosed that with my horde of alts.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 01:08, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      Would one of them include our good friend ComradeVladimirLenin?

      LogoWyvernFlipped VacaiAcVireniWyvern-logo-vector

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    • Well, I posted a nice reply bemoaning being under the corporate blanket, but it got deleted...

      Basically, I defended myself in that I was not being all excited about having to move, just pointing out that this is what wikia is forcing us into. The forums are going to be gone at some point, and we need to be prepared in some way, shape, or form.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • WillyTheWyvern wrote:

      Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote:

      Special Elf Friend wrote:

      High King Ithilion wrote: Here's a Kudos poll, so we can test the waters of what the community thinks.

      If you SUPPORT the Discussions change, kudos this post.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 23:34, January 31, 2017 (UTC) 

      What do you have against polls?
      They can be rigged with alt and Contributer accounts.

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 00:35, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      So can Kudos...

      If I didn't value secrecy I would have kudosed that with my horde of alts.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 01:08, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      Would one of them include our good friend ComradeVladimirLenin?

      LogoWyvernFlipped VacaiAcVireniWyvern-logo-vector

      No, believe it or not.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 02:17, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • SamwiseFilmore wrote: Well, I posted a nice reply bemoaning being under the corporate blanket, but it got deleted...

      Basically, I defended myself in that I was not being all excited about having to move, just pointing out that this is what wikia is forcing us into. The forums are going to be gone at some point, and we need to be prepared in some way, shape, or form.

      SamwiseFilmore

      They're onto us it seems...

      Anyway, I daresay they would archive the threads in some way, shape or form. Just in case though, back them up if you want them saved. Wikia is prone to mistakes.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 02:17, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • As is anyone. I'm wondering if we shouldn't be really radical and try and get ourselves out of wikia altogether...

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • SamwiseFilmore wrote:
      As is anyone. I'm wondering if we shouldn't be really radical and try and get ourselves out of wikia altogether...
      SamwiseFilmore

      Are you saying we...create our own site?

      LogoWyvernFlipped VacaiAcVireniWyvern-logo-vector

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    • Setting up a privately hosted mediawiki platform all on our own would be incredibly challenging, even with Sinth and other more technically proficient admin's helps. There are many wikis that have left wikia. Most of the larger ones went for their own hosting. Also, hosting isn't cheap. The amount of space a wiki and all the edit histories and files takes up is pretty incredible. Also, our data may not be nearly as secure, or difficult to hack. We'd probably need a full time person keeping our service running.

      On the other hand, there are sites that will transfer a wikia (linked through [1]), although that isn't easy or painless either. It means that all our contributers and other users need accounts with that site. We won't have access to forums in any way shape or form, other than talk pages.

      Wikia will also refuse to delete our wiki, and will continue to use it for ad revenue (This is something I assume would happen), and also skew our search results. Migrating would be hard. I would hope that we are a large enough source of income for them that we might have enough weight that we can shove around to get us some better treatment, and maybe have our needs met. However, we aren't like wookiepedia, and that would not be easy either. Any way we go, it wouldn't be easy...

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • Although this was a bit sudden, I think Sam was not unwarranted in requesting Discussions, as Wikia has informed us that Forums will be archived and redirected to discussions sooner or later, and we will be slightly ahead of the curve in understanding that when it does happen.

      Gen, I know I've asked a few times so pardon the possibly repeated question, but aside from this whole Discussions merge, what is it about Wikia that would force a relocation?

      Campinator Questions?

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    • I think it would be helpful in an announcement thread like this to provide a short list of functional differences between forums and discussions. For people who are not fully informed on or aware of both features it may be not that obvious what these are, as both sound so much alike.

      I also think this topic seems relevant enough to justify bureaucrat meddling / leadership.

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    • How do you mean "justify bureaucrat meddling/leadership"? I would like to see some representation here from the mod team, if that's what you mean.

      On the list, functional differences include:

      1. No wikitext
      2. Not integrated with the wiki hardly at all...
      3. No notifications
      4. Easier moderation, harder organization

      There may be more than that, but those are the main ones that come to mind.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • No wikitext, no notifications?!

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    • I believe alot of other wiki's and their users are against these discussions. They has to make it optional if they don't want to loose alot of users...

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    • The best we can do is attempt to convince Wikia to improve discussions. So far we have the following problems with them:

      -No notifications

      -No wikitext

      -No integration

      -Does not show up in recent wiki activity

      -Poor organization

      -Style can be confusing

      -Poor compatibility: cannot highlight or copy on tablet

      -Look clashes with the look of basically every wiki except community central

      -JavaScript nor CSS are functional

      -Setup makes it infuriating to moderate: though we haven't gotten large enough discussions for this problem to become evident yet, dicussions show up by which are the most popular instead of which had the most recent activity, making it incredibly difficult to find individual threads if many were posted in one day

      If we can find a way to get our complaints known to Wikia, it might get stuff fixed, but until then I vote to stick with the forums and mothball the discussions until/unless they improve significantly.

      As for why we wanted to leave, Camp. The main reasons are as follows.

      -Constant mandatory "improvements" that come with a trillion bugs and mess with systems we already have

      -New features making it increasingly difficult to operate, as small things such as infobox switchovers require hours of trying to fix the big steaming compatibility mess Wikia has left us with

      -The move toward a system more fitting of a "Fandom," causing us headaches and requiring constant maintenance on a site we just want to be consistent and functional as it is

      -Other Wiki-hosters have the same features with far fewer rebrands and "improvements"

      Basically, we want a host that will let us have a wiki and then leave us alone (as in being able to opt out of features or whatnot).

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 11:17, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Gen. Grievous1138 wrote: The best we can do is attempt to convince Wikia to improve discussions. So far we have the following problems with them:

      -No notifications

      -No wikitext

      -No integration

      -Does not show up in recent wiki activity

      -Poor organization

      -Style can be confusing

      -Poor compatibility: cannot highlight or copy on tablet

      -Look clashes with the look of basically every wiki except community central

      -JavaScript nor CSS are functional

      -Setup makes it infuriating to moderate: though we haven't gotten large enough discussions for this problem to become evident yet, dicussions show up by which are the most popular instead of which had the most recent activity, making it incredibly difficult to find individual threads if many were posted in one day

      If we can find a way to get our complaints known to Wikia, it might get stuff fixed, but until then I vote to stick with the forums and mothball the discussions until/unless they improve significantly.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 11:17, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      They should just keep the forum feature, than would be anything fine

      If not, I suggest independence!

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    • I'm going to mess with setting up a server with mediawiki this afternoon and see if that is a reasonable possibility. Running our own server out of a datacenter would give us the most flexibility and freedom, but would also be more work and would have a cost. We then would have the option to run ads to support ourselves, or to take donations to keep us alive. Another wiki farm would be an option, but it would still be susceptible to the same issues we have with wikia, on a less major scale.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • I hate this already.

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    • If you support moving away from Wikia to another platform, kudos this post.


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    • If you oppose moving to another platform, kudos this post.

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    • I'm willing to support movement after we've found a replacement site. Let's see what we can find before making a decision, yes?

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 21:19, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • If we want to go towards hosting our own we could always build a Wordpress website. From my experience with it, it would work pretty well.

      Or we could just accept that this is a Wiki and create a forum on a website like Lefora...

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    • High King Ithilion wrote:
      I'm willing to support movement after we've found a replacement site. Let's see what we can find before making a decision, yes?

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 21:19, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      Ya, I changed to oppose until there is a replacement.

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    • High King Ithilion wrote:
      I'm willing to support movement after we've found a replacement site. Let's see what we can find before making a decision, yes?

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 21:19, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      I'm currently tending strongly towards TikiWiki. It has anything we could ever want from a mod website, even including a real bugtracker! But for that we would need a server first.


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    • High King Ithilion wrote:
      I'm willing to support movement after we've found a replacement site. Let's see what we can find before making a decision, yes?

      IthilionHeraldry Ithilion, Discussions Moderator(Auta i lome) 21:19, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

      I agree. Also, I think that making our own site or finding a replacement should come after trying to convince Wikia to keep forums or improve discussions...

      LogoWyvernFlipped VacaiAcVireniWyvern-logo-vector

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote: If we want to go towards hosting our own we could always build a Wordpress website. From my experience with it, it would work pretty well.

      Or we could just accept that this is a Wiki and create a forum on a website like Lefora...

      I'm currently playing with MediaWiki and nginx and seeing if I can build a functional internal server with material from this site. If I can understand that, then I think it would be feasible to host ourselves. It would be more work, but we wouldn't have to worry about someone who's not directly related to the community shutting us down or changing things that we don't want changed. I would say if we were to do that, we'd also set up our own forum, with features that we want, as opposed to getting something hosted for free.

      @Sinth - My main concern about that platform (Which looks really cool, btw!) is that it's not compatible with our current setup. I mean, we'd have to completely rewrite each page from scratch, and reformat everything. Also, if it were to be so all-encompassing, I think that we'd need the mod team to move to it as well, as opposed to continuing to have two groups of people on two separate platforms (Wiki and FB) that overlap.

      @Willy - I also agree with this. Moving this site will be a tremendous amount of work, and we should do whatever possible to avoid having to take that road. However, we need to consider the amounts of work each separate pursuit would entail, and weigh those options accordingly.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • I don't think discussions alone are worth moving, I should note. The transfer work would be horrible. Wikia would need to make a colossal fuckup for me to actually support a full move.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 23:29, February 1, 2017 (UTC)

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    • What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • SamwiseFilmore wrote: What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore

      I would ask you how big that file would be...

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    • SamwiseFilmore wrote: What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore

      What if I were to tell you that Wikia could sue us for copyright if we moved? Because they can.

      The cons outweigh the pros. They haven't really fucked us over yet with any of their features, to be honest. And besides, the file size of that would crash anything.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 00:16, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

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    • Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:

      SamwiseFilmore wrote: What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore

      What if I were to tell you that Wikia could sue us for copyright if we moved? Because they can.

      The cons outweigh the pros. They haven't really fucked us over yet with any of their features, to be honest. And besides, the file size of that would crash anything.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 00:16, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

      How would it be against their copyright? Would it be copyrighted in the sense that it's on the wiki or the add ons and features were made by fandom.

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    • Ring9Of9fPower wrote:
      Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:

      SamwiseFilmore wrote: What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore
      What if I were to tell you that Wikia could sue us for copyright if we moved? Because they can.

      The cons outweigh the pros. They haven't really fucked us over yet with any of their features, to be honest. And besides, the file size of that would crash anything.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 00:16, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

      How would it be against their copyright? Would it be copyrighted in the sense that it's on the wiki or the add ons and features were made by fandom.

      We're copying their format and putting it in our own website...

      LogoWyvernFlipped VacaiAcVireniWyvern-logo-vector

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    • Gen. Grievous1138 wrote:

      SamwiseFilmore wrote: What if I told you you can dump the entire history of the wiki, every page (And thread, including all the history), into one xml document that can (slowly) be loaded into another mediawiki installation on a privately hosted server? This wouldn't include images, but it would be much easier than doing everything manually, and it would be more-or-less cleaner than that too.

      SamwiseFilmore

      What if I were to tell you that Wikia could sue us for copyright if we moved? Because they can.

      The cons outweigh the pros. They haven't really fucked us over yet with any of their features, to be honest. And besides, the file size of that would crash anything.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 00:16, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

      The filesize from the year-old snapshot is 165MB in xml, and only 20MB in compressed form. The majority of the size of the wiki is the images and other media. Still, a current version would be bigger.

      In terms of copyright, I don't understand why they can sue us? And who exactly are they suing anyway? Mediawiki is open-source, and all the other format and other work that we've done is all our own. I haven't read the licenses, so if someone would like to figure out the exact legalities of it, that would be great. Still, the amount of suing that wikia would be doing would be minimal. However, it's possible that our admins would be banned across the network for attempting to leave.

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • SamwiseFilmore wrote: In terms of copyright, I don't understand why they can sue us? And who exactly are they suing anyway? Mediawiki is open-source, and all the other format and other work that we've done is all our own. I haven't read the licenses, so if someone would like to figure out the exact legalities of it, that would be great. Still, the amount of suing that wikia would be doing would be minimal. However, it's possible that our admins would be banned across the network for attempting to leave.

      SamwiseFilmore

      I'll read the CC-by-SA legalese if you'd like...

      Campinator Questions?

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    • Just skim it and try and see if there is any way that wikia would be allowed to sue us for leaving, provided they could find someone to sue...

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • What Camp said. All I'm going to say is this: they can delete wikis for copyright in a heartbeat and do. If we transfer and they sue (which they can - they would be suing Mevans as they can easily figure out exactly wo he is) they could easily overcome us and take down the other wiki too, resulting in this wiki and all our hard wokr on both platforms being forever purged. That's why I'm not for leaving any time soon.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 01:28, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

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    • You know, there are a lot of sites that have successfully transferred from wikia, and are still making it. Honestly, I'm skeptical about just about everything you just said there, besides you saying that you aren't leaving any time soon. :P

      SamwiseFilmore
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    • Section 3A of the CC-by-SA legal code states that

      You a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual (for the duration of the applicable copyright) license to exercise the rights in the Work as stated below: to Reproduce the Work, to incorporate the Work into one or more Collections, and to Reproduce the Work as incorporated in the Collections

      which seems relevant to what is being discussed.

      Campinator Questions?

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    • Campinator
      Campinator removed this reply because:
      Whoops that's not the edit button...
      01:36, February 2, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • I'm going to make an actual polls for this.

      Discussions vs No Discussions
       
      1
       
      12
       

      The poll was created at 01:44 on February 2, 2017, and so far 13 people voted.

      Second Poll

      Move Or Stay
       
      3
       
      4
       

      The poll was created at 01:45 on February 2, 2017, and so far 7 people voted.
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    • The admin team is shutting this thread down as pointless.

      Gen. Grievous1138 (LOTR Mod Wiki Admin) comlink 01:48, February 2, 2017 (UTC)

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