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  • Dear community,

    Please all take careful notice of a number of additions to the What-not-to-suggest page. The changes as shown in this , this and this change overview page will be effective as of now and rule enforcement in line with these changes will be immediate.

    Most of these have been proposed in the past, some even already before I turned from lurker to tireless ogreseer. The additions I made solely represent my 'educated take' on it. I just decided to make the adjustments I already had in mind for quite some time, without having a long, likely diverting discussion about them in our veteran contributor & moderator Facebook chat. So, I may have chosen some disputable wording or even subjects in these additions. In case of clear and well argumented objections, please post them in this thread so we can discuss them and I can correct eventual wrongs.

    Edit: As indicated in this post below, I decided to rewrite the introduction of the page to ensure the interpretation of the list does not lead to needless discouragement of people with original, specific and concrete ideas on how to implement features mentioned on the WntS list. I hope in this way the page and rules will serve us best.

    Cheerio,

    Alte

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    • Hm, as I watch the development of this wiki for over three years now, I notice, as I joined, it was mainly editing pages to document what was implemented and only a few suggestions of something new or how to improve already existing things.

      Over time, the emphasis shifted to the suggestion part. I think, suggestions show, that the Mod triggers people's phantasy. They may be a valuble source of ideas for Mevans.

      But meanwhile, we suffocate in suggestions. To keep this in bay, we introduced the What not to Suggest page a while ago. But when I look on the list now, I can't even imagine, what's possible to suggest, without violating any of the rules.

      I imagine a new user, just joined the wiki. And before posting a suggestion, he or she has to read several pages (faq, forum rules, what not to suggest) with long lists, to check, if it's allowed or not. Sounds not very practical. Probably a lot of people won't read the lists at all, and some will read but not follow them.

      I have no idea, how to solve the problem, but I think the way we were heading the last time is not the ideal.


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    • TBH I dont see any changes.

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    • Might I request clarification to "that is rather obvious"?

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    • Maltalidenta Kwuitidherali wrote:
      Might I request clarification to "that is rather obvious"?

      Good question and not unexpected. :)

      How would you propose to narrow that down?

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    • Eoros
      Eoros removed this reply because:
      useless
      12:39, March 18, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • AlteOgre wrote:

      Maltalidenta Kwuitidherali wrote:
      Might I request clarification to "that is rather obvious"?

      Good question and not unexpected. :)

      How would you propose to narrow that down?

      Short of specifying examples, I guess you could specify certain elements, such as requiring some actual element of how the coding would progress, textures, etc.

      Otherwise, the predicament as to phrasing is entirely understandable.

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    • Were you saying that it was NOT okay to post suggestions on Lore compatible, but non-mentioned food items?

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    • S'moregoth wrote: Were you saying that it was NOT okay to post suggestions on Lore compatible, but non-mentioned food items?

      "Any animal, plant or food item that is not specifically mentioned in lore but that can be considered a possible addition because it is known to mankind on earth and it does not contradict lore."

      Unless it doesn't actually exist in the real world, yes.

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    • In my opinion, that is wierd.  I am sure the Mods and Admins have reasons, but that means we lose something like half of all the suggestions, and quite a few endorsed ones.

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    • S'moregoth wrote:
      In my opinion, that is wierd.  I am sure the Mods and Admins have reasons, but that means we lose something like half of all the suggestions, and quite a few endorsed ones.

      The mod team has been collecting suggestions for almost 4 years now. It's time we draw a line somewhere and use a more restricted filter at the input of the funnel. Additions to the What-not-to-Suggest list have been made in the course of time. We just entered another phase.

      And please note that there is no indicatioon whatsoever that we would delete/remove any already endorsed suggestions. In fact, we have actively recovered a great number of threads in past 12 months that had simply been removed from view and either placed them in the archive, or endorsed them for having acquired sufficient community support.

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    • That does make a certain amount of sense, but, like Ffets said, I feel a little bad for all the new people.

      If there is anything I as a user can do to help, please let me know.

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    • I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote: I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      Personally, I fail to see how these measures do anything more than focus creativity upon areas where it's more necessary, and increase the general usefulness of them to the extent that they'll probably in turn be more noticed by the mod team (with a bit of luck).

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    • But this could simply come as an encouragement to focus your foughts to improvement rather than de-facto banning any other suggestion.

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote: But this could simply come as an encouragement to focus your foughts to improvement rather than de-facto banning any other suggestion.

      What's the use of the suggestions that aren't useful?

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      I agree with you, but to an extent.  You are correct in saying that, "There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions."  However, making adaquate and informed suggestions is what we want, but often times, not what the Mods get.

      The more I think about it, the more this change makes sense, however - and feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but a spoonful of sugar would be appreciated - I think, that instead of barring people from making suggestions on some of the subjects you restricted in these changes, you elaborate more on the definitions of concrete, specific, and well thought out.

      Yes, I realize that some people would still post things that are not helpful, but I think that those honest people who would be posting what may look like useful stuff to them, but isn't to you, would be deterred a little bit, or at least forced to rethink their suggestions in a good way.

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    • S'moregoth wrote:

      Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      I agree with you, but to an extent.  You are correct in saying that, "There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions."  However, making adaquate and informed suggestions is what we want, but often times, not what the Mods get.

      The more I think about it, the more this change makes sense, however - and feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but a spoonful of sugar would be appreciated - I think, that instead of barring people from making suggestions on some of the subjects you restricted in these changes, you elaborate more on the definitions of concrete, specific, and well thought out.

      Yes, I realize that some people would still post things that are not helpful, but I think that those honest people who would be posting what may look like useful stuff to them, but isn't to you, would be deterred a little bit, or at least forced to rethink their suggestions in a good way.

      That was, generally, the purpose of my own first post, so I'm with you all the way on that one.

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    • S'moregoth wrote:
      That does make a certain amount of sense, but, like Ffets said, I feel a little bad for all the new people.

      If there is anything I as a user can do to help, please let me know.

      Aye. I feel equally bad for those who put in effort to suggest features that haven't even been seriously looked at in past 4 years and that ended up in some unexplorable archive. I also feel sorry for the people that got a thread endorsed with a bunch of unrelated suggestions the mod team cannot appreciate. And I feel sorry for those who had a good idea endorsed that isn't listed in the overview threads yet, so the chances are small that the mod team finds it once they start searching for specific or related subjects. Finally I feel sorry for Mevans and his buddies for all the effort they put in numerous features without getting clear overview in time of relevant suggestions made by the community over the past four years.

      Not mentioning wiki moderators and other dedicated contributors who continuously have to deal with so many repetitive suggestions throughout the years, and with criticism of both mod team and community members for not being effective both in filtering out the pointless additions on the one hand and in ensuring no original notions are filtered out on the other hand. Oh, I did mention that.

      Meanwhile we have an evergrowing oceanic soup of community endorsed suggestions that hold much valuable notions that may be of use to the mod team. Time to place some additional filtration capacity in the numerous rivers and sewers that debouch in that ocean.

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    • AlteOgre wrote:
      S'moregoth wrote:
      That does make a certain amount of sense, but, like Ffets said, I feel a little bad for all the new people.

      If there is anything I as a user can do to help, please let me know.

      Aye. I feel equally bad for those who put in effort to suggest features that haven't even been seriously looked at in past 4 years and that ended up in some unexplorable archive. I also feel sorry for the people that got a thread endorsed with a bunch of unrelated suggestions the mod team cannot appreciate. And I feel sorry for those who had a good idea endorsed that isn't listed in the overview threads yet, so the chances are small that the mod team finds it once they start searching for specific or related subjects. Finally I feel sorry for Mevans and his buddies for all the effort they put in numerous features without getting clear overview in time of relevant suggestions made by the community over the past four years.

      Not mentioning wiki moderators and other dedicated contributors who continuously have to deal with so many repetitive suggestions throughout the years, and with criticism of both mod team and community members for not being effective both in filtering out the pointless additions on the one hand and in ensuring no original notions are filtered out. Oh, I did mention that.

      Meanwhile we have an evergrowing oceanic soup of community endorsed suggestions that hold much valuable notions that may be of use to the mod team. Time to place some additional filtration capacity in the numerous rivers and sewers that debouch in that ocean.

      Thank you.  I do understand that.  I never said I didn't feel bad for the moderators.  I do.  If you are being sincere, then I am with you for a long way, but if you are being sarcastic, (as I can't tell for sure in type) I don't believe I deserved that.  All I was trying to say, was that it might be worth clarifying a little more what types of suggestions be allowed.

      If I hurt your feelings, you mave my sincerest apologies.  That was not my intent.

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    • Maltalidenta Kwuitidherali wrote:

      S'moregoth wrote:

      Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      I agree with you, but to an extent.  You are correct in saying that, "There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions."  However, making adaquate and informed suggestions is what we want, but often times, not what the Mods get.

      The more I think about it, the more this change makes sense, however - and feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but a spoonful of sugar would be appreciated - I think, that instead of barring people from making suggestions on some of the subjects you restricted in these changes, you elaborate more on the definitions of concrete, specific, and well thought out.

      Yes, I realize that some people would still post things that are not helpful, but I think that those honest people who would be posting what may look like useful stuff to them, but isn't to you, would be deterred a little bit, or at least forced to rethink their suggestions in a good way.

      That was, generally, the purpose of my own first post, so I'm with you all the way on that one.

      Thank you for understanding.  Sorry for copying you.

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    • S'moregoth wrote:

      Maltalidenta Kwuitidherali wrote:

      S'moregoth wrote:

      Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      I agree with you, but to an extent.  You are correct in saying that, "There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions."  However, making adaquate and informed suggestions is what we want, but often times, not what the Mods get.

      The more I think about it, the more this change makes sense, however - and feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but a spoonful of sugar would be appreciated - I think, that instead of barring people from making suggestions on some of the subjects you restricted in these changes, you elaborate more on the definitions of concrete, specific, and well thought out.

      Yes, I realize that some people would still post things that are not helpful, but I think that those honest people who would be posting what may look like useful stuff to them, but isn't to you, would be deterred a little bit, or at least forced to rethink their suggestions in a good way.

      That was, generally, the purpose of my own first post, so I'm with you all the way on that one.

      Thank you for understanding.  Sorry for copying you.

      I mean, it's an obvious idea, without much to really copy, so I don't really consider it part of any intellectual portfolio.

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    • S'moregoth wrote:
      AlteOgre wrote:
      S'moregoth wrote:
      That does make a certain amount of sense, but, like Ffets said, I feel a little bad for all the new people.

      If there is anything I as a user can do to help, please let me know.

      Aye. I feel equally bad for those who put in effort to suggest features that haven't even been seriously looked at in past 4 years and that ended up in some unexplorable archive. I also feel sorry for the people that got a thread endorsed with a bunch of unrelated suggestions the mod team cannot appreciate. And I feel sorry for those who had a good idea endorsed that isn't listed in the overview threads yet, so the chances are small that the mod team finds it once they start searching for specific or related subjects. Finally I feel sorry for Mevans and his buddies for all the effort they put in numerous features without getting clear overview in time of relevant suggestions made by the community over the past four years.

      Not mentioning wiki moderators and other dedicated contributors who continuously have to deal with so many repetitive suggestions throughout the years, and with criticism of both mod team and community members for not being effective both in filtering out the pointless additions on the one hand and in ensuring no original notions are filtered out. Oh, I did mention that.

      Meanwhile we have an evergrowing oceanic soup of community endorsed suggestions that hold much valuable notions that may be of use to the mod team. Time to place some additional filtration capacity in the numerous rivers and sewers that debouch in that ocean.

      Thank you.  I do understand that.  I never said I didn't feel bad for the moderators.  I do.  If you are being sincere, then I am with you for a long way, but if you are being sarcastic, (as I can't tell for sure in type) I don't believe I deserved that.  All I was trying to say, was that it might be worth clarifying a little more what types of suggestions be allowed.

      If I hurt your feelings, you mave my sincerest apologies.  That was not my intent.

      I see no need to take anything I mention personally. I don't expect my words to be taken personally either, certainly when I'm not using 'you' in a quoted reply. ;)

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    • You know, you're pretty much just saying "Don't suggest anything, please, because any idea you could think of has already been thought of."

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    • Its impossible to suggest something withouting violating the list. In my opinion, its just a list, which should remember the users what is often suggested and will maybe get added one day, even if nobody suggest it.

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    • Codebreaker 2100 wrote:
      You know, you're pretty much just saying "Don't suggest anything, please, because any idea you could think of has already been thought of."

      Well, there are enough fameplay features we can think off probably

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    • AlteOgre wrote:
      S'moregoth wrote:
      AlteOgre wrote:
      S'moregoth wrote:
      That does make a certain amount of sense, but, like Ffets said, I feel a little bad for all the new people.

      If there is anything I as a user can do to help, please let me know.

      Aye. I feel equally bad for those who put in effort to suggest features that haven't even been seriously looked at in past 4 years and that ended up in some unexplorable archive. I also feel sorry for the people that got a thread endorsed with a bunch of unrelated suggestions the mod team cannot appreciate. And I feel sorry for those who had a good idea endorsed that isn't listed in the overview threads yet, so the chances are small that the mod team finds it once they start searching for specific or related subjects. Finally I feel sorry for Mevans and his buddies for all the effort they put in numerous features without getting clear overview in time of relevant suggestions made by the community over the past four years.

      Not mentioning wiki moderators and other dedicated contributors who continuously have to deal with so many repetitive suggestions throughout the years, and with criticism of both mod team and community members for not being effective both in filtering out the pointless additions on the one hand and in ensuring no original notions are filtered out. Oh, I did mention that.

      Meanwhile we have an evergrowing oceanic soup of community endorsed suggestions that hold much valuable notions that may be of use to the mod team. Time to place some additional filtration capacity in the numerous rivers and sewers that debouch in that ocean.

      Thank you.  I do understand that.  I never said I didn't feel bad for the moderators.  I do.  If you are being sincere, then I am with you for a long way, but if you are being sarcastic, (as I can't tell for sure in type) I don't believe I deserved that.  All I was trying to say, was that it might be worth clarifying a little more what types of suggestions be allowed.

      If I hurt your feelings, you mave my sincerest apologies.  That was not my intent.

      I see no need to take anything I mention personally. I don't expect my words to be taken personally either, certainly when I'm not using 'you' in a quoted reply. ;)

      Understood!  Thank you.

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    • Codebreaker 2100 wrote:
      You know, you're pretty much just saying "Don't suggest anything, please, because any idea you could think of has already been thought of."

      I seriously don't think so. I've seen many suggestions posted and get endorsed that don't match the categories just added.

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I simply must protest. There is no sense or logic in barring the community from making adequate and informed suggestions. None at all. I appreciate the amount of work that has to be done for the development of the mod. I will never be able to fully comprehend it, but imagine it is truly daunting and monumental. Regardless of this, I have, in the short amount of time that I have actively followed this wiki, found some magnificent suggestions, elaborate, detailed and certainly attractive which would contradict the rule quoted above. After all, the suggestions are in no way binding- this has been made crystal clear- they can act only as inspiration or "advice" to Mevans. So why would it be necessary to restrict them so? Boundless as the development team's intellect is (this is no sarcasm or innuendo), some additional creative thought can never be unwelcome! Please, if I am missing a large point here, do show me which. Justify these measures.

      With humble respect-

      M. Leclerc.

      So, would that mean you object to most of what has already been on that list for quite some time already? If so, I could consider your objections irrelevant for this thread as they apply to a scope that goes beyond the scope of this thread. A separate post to discuss the purpose of the What-not-to-Suggest page would be more appropriate in that case.

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    • Personally I have to agree that the "what not to suggest" list seems to have gotten a bit unwieldy. Right now, you can't suggest anything which is mentioned in lore, anything which is not mentioned in lore but can be assumed to exist, and anything which relies on other, as yet unadded features. There's a tiny little sliver of a grey area in which you can operate, but it's really hard to find. to reiterate what others have said, about 99% of suggestions have been eliminated. I just feel that we've gone a bit overboard on the whole regulation of the suggestions forum with this change.

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    • Which part of the adjustments would you think need to be corrected, and how, to make it 'feel' a 'little less overboard' in your opinion? Or would you feel the WntS list had actually already been too much 'overboard', and in what respect?

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    • What if there was a way that we as regular users can help with the "evergrowing oceanic soup"?  This wiki is very helpful, and I would like to contribute something to it.  (Other than suggestions, of course.)  Maybe normal users, if they wished, could help sort the suggestions into different categories, kind of like on the overview threads, or maybe they could just help update the Overview Threads.

      Maybe you could have some system where if a person posts a thread, they have to do some sort of work to help clean up the mess of suggestions.  That way, you would, for starters, only get suggestions from those willing to help.  Then, you wouldn't have any suggestions from people who don't want to take time to work, and any suggestions you do have would have been paid for (for lack of a better term) with a little bit of work.

      These are just thoughts, but I hope that they are helpful.

      I am sure that, if given the chance, there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who would be glad to help.

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    • AlteOgre wrote: Which part of the adjustments would you think need to be corrected, and how, to make it 'feel' a 'little less overboard' in your opinion? Or would you feel the WntS list had actually already been too much 'overboard', and in what respect?

      I think that the most recent change ( the change being: "Any animal, plant or food item that is not specifically mentioned in lore but that can be considered a possible addition because it is known to mankind on earth and it does not contradict lore.") , while it was made with good intentions, is the feather which breaks the camel's back. It really limits what you can suggest as far as depth in the mod goes. For instance, suggestions regarding wildlife or different plants, things which have potential to add to the atmosphere and ambience of the mod, are all covered by this ban.

      Respectfully,

      Carina nebula Rocket Engineer (Temp Mod) (Send a FTL signal)

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    • I would just like to say that, back when I originally wrote the 'do not suggest anything mentioned in the lore or in the real world', it was in the context of 'pls add minas tirith' and 'pls add easterlings' and 'they should add peaches in harad'. Obvious ideas, and useless clutter. See, this was before the whole suggestions forum with long posts thing really came about. I wanted people to stop cluttering up the forums and the facebook page with one-liner suggestions that would have been obvious to anyone with a moment of thought, let alone an entire mod team with years' worth of discussions.

      When I wrote that, to 'suggest' something was to post on the page asking us to add it, not to write up a long detailed essay proposing a feature with enough subtleties as to be worthy of an entire mod for itself.

      Not to prevent any discussion of 'obvious' ideas, but rather, to encourage discussion of them.

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    • LOTRMod wrote:
      I would just like to say that, back when I originally wrote the 'do not suggest anything mentioned in the lore or in the real world', it was in the context of 'pls add minas tirith' and 'pls add easterlings' and 'they should add peaches in harad'. Obvious ideas, and useless clutter. See, this was before the whole suggestions forum with long posts thing really came about. I wanted people to stop cluttering up the forums and the facebook page with one-liner suggestions that would have been obvious to anyone with a moment of thought, let alone an entire mod team with years' worth of discussions.

      When I wrote that, to 'suggest' something was to post on the page asking us to add it, not to write up a long detailed essay proposing a feature with enough subtleties as to be worthy of an entire mod for itself.

      Not to prevent any discussion of 'obvious' ideas, but rather, to encourage discussion of them.

      Cool!  Hail Illuvitar!

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    • Rocket Engineer wrote:

      AlteOgre wrote: Which part of the adjustments would you think need to be corrected, and how, to make it 'feel' a 'little less overboard' in your opinion? Or would you feel the WntS list had actually already been too much 'overboard', and in what respect?

      I think that the most recent change ( the change being: "Any animal, plant or food item that is not specifically mentioned in lore but that can be considered a possible addition because it is known to mankind on earth and it does not contradict lore.") , while it was made with good intentions, is the feather which breaks the camel's back. It really limits what you can suggest as far as depth in the mod goes. For instance, suggestions regarding wildlife or different plants, things which have potential to add to the atmosphere and ambience of the mod, are all covered by this ban.

      Respectfully,

      Carina nebula Rocket Engineer (Temp Mod) (Send a FTL signal)

      Right. Now why would that be a feather that breaks the camel's back, while the already present feature types mentioned in the first bullit point apparently didn't? May I remind all that about a year ago it was common and accepted practise to close threads and ban contributors for suggestions relating on how to implement new lore based features. Did the camel still have a back?

      What would you propose to change in the WntS text so the camel's back won't break? Please be concrete, provide the edited text you think would do the trick.

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    • LOTRMod wrote:
      I would just like to say that, back when I originally wrote the 'do not suggest anything mentioned in the lore or in the real world', it was in the context of 'pls add minas tirith' and 'pls add easterlings' and 'they should add peaches in harad'. Obvious ideas, and useless clutter. See, this was before the whole suggestions forum with long posts thing really came about. I wanted people to stop cluttering up the forums and the facebook page with one-liner suggestions that would have been obvious to anyone with a moment of thought, let alone an entire mod team with years' worth of discussions.

      When I wrote that, to 'suggest' something was to post on the page asking us to add it, not to write up a long detailed essay proposing a feature with enough subtleties as to be worthy of an entire mod for itself.

      Not to prevent any discussion of 'obvious' ideas, but rather, to encourage discussion of them.

      Thanks for responding here Mevans. You should realise this entire mechanism is here to ensure you get useful suggestions and as discussed on several occassions elsewhere, I do wish to stress it is you and your mod team who can only decisively determine what you wish to end up with at the end of the funnel of improvement idea processing. You did point out it was up to us to adjust the FAQ and WntS pages to our best insights. Now again, as I indicated earlier, it is really up to you to determine whether you wish for an ongoing stream of suggestions on addition of 'obvious' new features and on the way of how to implement them, or if you wish to limit that inflow. In extremis, I could imagine you could settle for the variant I described here (quoting myself):

      "In my view the mod team should just be able focus on what is in lore, in their own gamers/memers minds and what is planned and implemented, and be relieved of any other noise coming from the suggestions forum. Consequently contributors should only provide improvement suggestions on existing features, unless the mod team explicitely requests for input on a planned feature, which can be dealt with outside the suggestions forum."

      That may be an option to consider, maybe even just for a limited hiatus.

      If you don't want that, I propose to adjust the description on the WntS page by focussing on the fact that we want people to focus on: "Don't simply suggest a feature, but tell us how you would suggest to implement it.". For that to be effective, we just need to adjust a few lines.

      The difference between both options is to get or not get a(nother) truckload of suggestions on features that are planned and/or obvious additions with for example multiple suggestion threads per different feature on how to implement them. This would for instance consider: polar bears, peach liquor, fell beasts, avari elves, campfires, biomes in the uttermost east and magically imbued rings. I do wish to stress that if you would opt for that variant, it may be very useful to still exclude types of features you do not want any 'how to suggestions' on before they are implemented, but that is entirely up to you. All a matter of weighing priorities: spend effort in processing suggestions versus chance of finding rare, yet unknown, gems worthy of considering.

      And, again, please indicate whether you guys consider it valuable or not to have this updated on a continuous basis. I won't recommence putting effort in that if I don't have any clue about it's added value to you and the mod team. That is a promise, not a threat. ;)

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    • AlteOgre wrote:

      So, would that mean you object to most of what has already been on that list for quite some time already? If so, I could consider your objections irrelevant for this thread as they apply to a scope that goes beyond the scope of this thread. A separate post to discuss the purpose of the What-not-to-Suggest page would be more appropriate in that case.

      I have been gravely misunderstood. I mean to express my dissatisfaction with the point which specifically bans suggesting those items/animals that are not mentioned in the lore and do not contradict it. This, to me, is the only portion of the suggestions forum which is useful (not forgeting the suggestions for changes to existing implimentations). By no means do I disagree with the entire list- it would make no sense whatsoever to encourage suggestions on already planned features (Such as Minas Tirith, characters and etc.). I simply disagree with that particular point.

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    • AlteOgre wrote:

      Rocket Engineer wrote:

      AlteOgre wrote: Which part of the adjustments would you think need to be corrected, and how, to make it 'feel' a 'little less overboard' in your opinion? Or would you feel the WntS list had actually already been too much 'overboard', and in what respect?

      I think that the most recent change ( the change being: "Any animal, plant or food item that is not specifically mentioned in lore but that can be considered a possible addition because it is known to mankind on earth and it does not contradict lore.") , while it was made with good intentions, is the feather which breaks the camel's back. It really limits what you can suggest as far as depth in the mod goes. For instance, suggestions regarding wildlife or different plants, things which have potential to add to the atmosphere and ambience of the mod, are all covered by this ban.

      Respectfully,

      Carina nebula Rocket Engineer (Temp Mod) (Send a FTL signal)

      Right. Now why would that be a feather that breaks the camel's back, while the already present feature types mentioned in the first bullit point apparently didn't? May I remind all that about a year ago it was common and accepted practise to close threads and ban contributors for suggestions relating on how to implement new lore based features. Did the camel still have a back?

      What would you propose to change in the WntS text so the camel's back won't break? Please be concrete, provide the edited text you think would do the trick.

      Ok, the only thing I think should be changed is that this particular passage should be removed: "Any animal, plant or food item that is not specifically mentioned in lore but that can be considered a possible addition because it is known to mankind on earth and it does not contradict lore". In combination with the first bullet point on the WntS list, what exactly can be suggested is limited to a degree I feel is too severe.

      Carina nebula Rocket Engineer (Temp Mod) (Send a FTL signal)

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    • I agree with you, this was my objection all along (although apparently failed to clarify this).

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    • I have an option which would act to limit the amount of pointless suggestions:

      A "Vote to close this discussion" button. This would act in the same way as the kudos, after reaching a certain threshhold, the discussion is automatically moved to the archives.

      Please note that I am no specialist and have now idea how this can be be implimented, if at all. I wish only to help relieve the mod team from their task of reading every suggestion through. I believe that the community can be trusted to use a feature such as this responsibly.

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote: I have an option which would act to limit the amount of pointless suggestions:

      A "Vote to close this discussion" button. This would act in the same way as the kudos, after reaching a certain threshhold, the discussion is automatically moved to the archives.

      Please note that I am no specialist and have now idea how this can be be implimented, if at all. I wish only to help relieve the mod team from their task of reading every suggestion through. I believe that the community can be trusted to use a feature such as this responsibly.

      Someone could start it, with a pre-organised message format, and the kudos count as the votes of no confidence.

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    • Sadly the options to facilitate any supporting system are limited. In fact, this wiki forum feature could hardly be considered suitable for the purpose of collecting and rating suggestions. If you wish to broaden the scope of the discussion and discuss more than what I've brought forward in the first post, I recommend to post a new discussion topic after checking out the news and announcement board for older threads with more background info. Most relevant documentation and discussion threads can be found by starting here.

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    • AlteOgre wrote: ... Meanwhile we have an evergrowing oceanic soup of community endorsed suggestions ... in the numerous rivers and sewers ...

      Well said!


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    • I have pondered the above feedback, especially those by Mevans and RocketEngineer, and decided to rewrite the introduction part of the WntS page. This now looks like this:


      "This is a list of features you should not suggest to be added to the mod, as such, without being very specific and concrete about how to implement them in an original and non-obvious manner.

      Note that this list is not comprehensive, read the FAQ for guidance. Anything that is mentioned on the Planned Features page can be considered a part of this list.

      As indicated in the first sentence, we do wish to stress that Mevans and the mod team do appreciate original and concrete notions on how to implement many of the features listed below. So, do not interpret this list as 'A list of things not to suggest anything about, anytime, at all.'. But, beware that your notions must be original and not 'very obvious'. Any obvious and unoriginal suggestion simply leads to waste of peoples effort and time and clutters the forums. In general, we recommend to focus on providing improvement suggestions on already existing features. This especially holds for the features mentioned on the Planned Features list, unless the mod team explicitely indicates they appreciate the input of ideas on planned features they are working on, which is generally announced on the Facebook page."

      I hope this meets the expectations of Mevans, mod team, wiki staff and all other enthusiastic and inspired LOTRmod enthusiats. If not, let me know. I bork, but I won't byte. :)

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    • This is now perfect! I am glad that this controversial change has met such an end! Bravo!

      EDIT: That was my original line of thoughts. On further observation, I see a problem. There is no way to specify what is "too obvious". This is a matter that would require a definitive "rule" (for want of a better term).

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    • I am afraid that I did read through it and fail to see the problem. I also wished to ask, if I were to open a discussion on the aforementioned matter, where would it be most appropriate? In the suggestions forum or elsewhere?

      (Apologies for having properly examined this so late)

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      This is now perfect! I am glad that this controversial change has met such an end! Bravo!

      EDIT: That was my original line of thoughts. On further observation, I see a problem. There is no way to specify what is "too obvious". This is a matter that would require a definitive "rule" (for want of a better term).

      We'll have to find a suitable 'modus operandi' in our interpretation of 'too obvious'. I'm quite confident that this will be accomplished, and pretty fast as well. The entire community has developed a way with defining what is 'acceptable' and what is not, throughout the past years. Fortunately, such is not only the task or responsibility of the wiki moderators and admins. :)

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    • Esquire Mortimer Leclerc, Master Brewer wrote:
      I am afraid that I did read through it and fail to see the problem. I also wished to ask, if I were to open a discussion on the aforementioned matter, where would it be most appropriate? In the suggestions forum or elsewhere?

      (Apologies for having properly examined this so late)

      Your first sentence puzzles me, but I have the feeling it doesn't require an answer.

      Any discussion regarding rules and ways of working on the wiki may be started here. If your topic is not solely restricted to the wiki, but also involves the mod itself, I'd suggest to post here instead.

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    • I'm not sure if it's possible, but I wonder if making a letter or word limit to suggestion threads would be beneficial...

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    • Dinopizzagamer wrote: I'm not sure if it's possible, but I wonder if making a letter or word limit to suggestion threads would be beneficial...

      That's counter productive. The best suggestions are often the longest ;)

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    • Special Elf Friend wrote:

      Dinopizzagamer wrote: I'm not sure if it's possible, but I wonder if making a letter or word limit to suggestion threads would be beneficial...

      That's counter productive. The best suggestions are often the longest ;)

      True, but the most likely to be added are the simple ones.

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    • A FANDOM user
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