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  • Just returned to the game after some time off to try the new Update in singleplayer. I was glad to see the "conquest" feature is here, it was one of the features I would have liked to see when I initially started playing the mod. However, in its current state, it has missed the mark and lacks two features that make a world of difference: ability to change decay time and enemy spawning.

    TL;DR: with the current setup, you actually do not conquer territory, just get some allied spawns around you, whose numbers are low, the enemy is still there and even this small benefit is lost quite quickly due to very fast decay time. My suggestion would be to enable commands to be able to influence decay time and (if possible) no enemy NPC spawns at all (when a certain ceiling is reached). If NPC spawn is fully biome related (therefore not technically possible), at least enable tweaking ally NPC spawn rates and decay time. For server players: please ignore all this as it does not affect you, since admins can ignore these commands fully. Do bare in mind however that a THIRD of players plays on singleplayer, based on latest survey, so the freedom to tweak these settings would make a world of difference for those not playing competitively.

    First issue: decay time

    Currently, decay time is set by the system and is both very fast and contradicts MC mechanics, by decaying even when the player is not in a chunk. You can spend an hour in a chunk and reaching high alignment with a faction, still decay of the conquered territory will be so fast that in no-time you lost the territory, unless you constantly remain in that area. Which is quite impossible, if you want to conquer all of the enemy areas. I'm pretty sure this is done on purpose, to avoid (on servers especially) an imbalance resulting from too slow a decay, so that more active (PvE) players would basically conquer the map in no-time, without other players having the chance to repossess conquered territory. It ignores the fact however that (based on latest survey) a significant part of players plays on singleplayer (33,7% of 1393 respondents), where there is no PvP and therefore (permanent) conquest would be a fun purpose to set.

    Since the conquest RATE can be set through commands, this basically can be set in a way that you get so many points for kills that with current decay time it will never fade away, so basically permanent "conquering" is enabled as it is. So if the intention was to not allow for an imbalance, it is there if a server decides to allow for (virtually permanent) conquering. It makes no sense therefore to restrict changing decay time for this purpose. Furthermore, the disadvantage of the current setup (i.e. decay time changing disabled, but conquest point rate enabled) is that if I want to make a territory be conquered permanently, I will have to set the conquest rate very high (so that no matter the decay time, it remains my territory), but this means that with a few kills I have already conquered an area, which makes no sense either.

    My suggestion would be to enable changing decay through commands, so that one third of total playerbase can set the rate of conquering for themselves in singleplayer (and some servers as well where players are open to such change). If this is technically not an option, please at least enable a permanent conquering setting, which is enabled when reaching a certain level of conquest rate, able to be set through commands.

    What this would look like: a command setting conquest decay speed vs current speed, for example value 10  would mean it decays 10 times slower. Value 1 means at current speed.

    /conquest decay [value]
    

    Alternatively, by reaching a "ceiling" would make an area permanently conquered. Value is the ceiling value of conquer rate. For example Value 100 means that once you reach 100 conquer rate, your decay in that chunk stops (until reset or until an enemy player takes it back, in case of multiplayer servers).

    /conquest permanent [value]
    


    Second: enemy spawns

    Even if the decay is fixed, the bigger issue is what "conquest" really means here. As the last comment before me mentioned, it is hardly a conquest when your allies spawn at still a neglectible rate in the conquered territory. I reached a 100+ conquer rate in Dol Guldur to try the feature out, but aside from small groups of Elves, the (conquered) Orcs seem to spawn at the same rate as before, with the only change that the few spawned Elves ignite the occasional fights at the periphery of my location, not influencing my PvE at any extent or the conquering of terrain. Again, if we look at singleplayer, it would be a fun goal by itself to be able to enable permanent conquering, which means you basically populate the enemy territory with your own troops. I can even imagine some servers who may blow some new life in the game by motivating players to not just PvP but go out there and conquer terrain or take it back if conquered.

    If there is a technical boundary to doing this and enemy NPC spawns are biome related, so that their spawn numbers cannot be influenced, then I would sugges to replace the NPC from enemy to ally in those chunks that have reached a certain ceiling. If this is technically impossible as well, then perhaps the number of allied NPC spawns could be increased to a much higher extent than it is now and/or those of the conquered enemy decreased. I think that we can only call something "conquered" if there is a (permanent or at least temporary) imbalance in favour of the conquerer. Otherwise it is more like a reinforcement or as if you have more hired troops (but you cannot control them).

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    • I agree, i have the same problem in my singleplayer. I made a base there though and set up banner protection wich fixes part of the issue. so i also added those spawn flags (npcspawners) so more npcs spawn (you can also make these so that no enemys can spawn in the npcspawners suroudings so this probably should be able to work with conquest too.)

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    • If the permanent conquering  is only for Singleplayer the enemy NPCs should be able to re-conquer their territory, maybe with Invasions or from the next Chunk that belongs to the enemy they rush to your conquered territory or try to stop you to conquer? If somebody is attacked and we speak here from factions they should and would react to your attack?!

      In Multiplayer, Players of the enemy faction should get an information that their faction (if pledged) is attacked by another faction and they could react to your attack?!

      that would make sense to me.

      that is at the moment all from me. :)

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    • BraveSold!3r wrote:
      I agree, i have the same problem in my singleplayer.

      I made a base there though and set up banner protection wich fixes part of the issue. so i also added those spawn flags (npcspawners) so more npcs spawn (you can also make these so that no enemys can spawn in the npcspawners suroudings so this probably should be able to work with conquest too.)

      In theory it's indeed an inbetween, but it does not really function fully, plus imagine the resources needed to cover all your conquered areas with banners.. The amount of gold or silver would be insane, hardly realistic to mine or get easily through trade (cups e.g.).

      The reason it does not function: if a bannered gold block falls outside of the loaded chunk you're in (with great odds, since it's a pretty large area) the area that the banner normally covers will NOT be protecting against enemy NPC's until the bannered block is loaded in. So even if you cover everything with banners, the NPC's at the periphery of your loaded chunks will keep spawning, if their spawn is tied to the biome. Once spawned in, the NPC's are there and active. Not to speak of the needed effort to populate the whole map with these blocks as your progress, measuring their reach and no overlapping, etc. It takes away from all the fun playing the game.

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    • GoldenesKalb wrote:
      If the permanent conquering  is only for Singleplayer the enemy NPCs should be able to re-conquer their territory, maybe with Invasions or from the next Chunk that belongs to the enemy they rush to your conquered territory or try to stop you to conquer? If somebody is attacked and we speak here from factions they should and would react to your attack?!

      In Multiplayer, Players of the enemy faction should get an information that their faction (if pledged) is attacked by another faction and they could react to your attack?!

      that would make sense to me.

      that is at the moment all from me. :)

      Currently "decay" implicitly means that when you are not there to upkeep your territory, NPC's automatically conquer it back again, as the conquest rate goes down without any action from your side. So indeed, you are right, it is the current feature.

      What I am proposing is to be able to disable this (in singleplayer this is a one-man decision), by making conquest permanent. In real ME life, the enemy might be conquering back an area, but in a Minecraft environment single-player means that you can only be at one place at the time to conquer, it would make any sort of conquest impossible, as you cannot be all over Middle-Earth at the same time. If this was an MMO with thousands of players all over the map to hold the conquered territories, it would work, but that's a different ballgame (beside the fact that thousands of players would need to be online for PvE). I am talking mainly about a singleplayer environment, with its MC limitations.

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    • don´t get me wrong i´m absolutly with you. My idea was not the "decay" over time, but decay by loosing troops in the fight in PvE or EvE if you are nearby so the chunks are loaded. So that the NPCs could recapture their land.

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    • I agree with the OP that you should be able to change the mechanics of the conquest, as the decay time is to quick for single player conquest. Having a certain limit to make the claiming permanent is also a good idea.

      The only reason this might not have been added yet is how to cause enemy NPCs to hinder your ME conquest after the land you are conquering is secured

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    • In theory it's indeed an inbetween, but it does not really function fully, plus imagine the resources needed to cover all your conquered areas with banners.. The amount of gold or silver would be insane, hardly realistic to mine or get easily through trade (cups e.g.).

      The reason it does not function: if a bannered gold block falls outside of the loaded chunk you're in (with great odds, since it's a pretty large area) the area that the banner normally covers will NOT be protecting against enemy NPC's until the bannered block is loaded in. So even if you cover everything with banners, the NPC's at the periphery of your loaded chunks will keep spawning, if their spawn is tied to the biome. Once spawned in, the NPC's are there and active. Not to speak of the needed effort to populate the whole map with these blocks as your progress, measuring their reach and no overlapping, etc. It takes away from all the fun playing the game.

      Yes i agree with you. I offered a temporary solution to you :P

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    • GoldenesKalb wrote:
      don´t get me wrong i´m absolutly with you. My idea was not the "decay" over time, but decay by loosing troops in the fight in PvE or EvE if you are nearby so the chunks are loaded. So that the NPCs could recapture their land.

      Ah, I think I understand what you mean. So basically if an NPC kills one of the allied NPC's, the conquest points get reduced, but only when the chunks are loaded, so when the player (or any other player if multiplayer) is nearby? I'm not sure if technically anything that an NPC does can be coded into what a player does (so the conquest points in this case), so probably technically that's quite challenging. Also, the purpose of conquest is that no more enemy NPC's spawn at all in a conquered chunk, otherwise we're back to the current scenario where enemy NPC's keep spawning and "conquered" territory is still a warzone.

      I understand where you're coming from with the concept of "border" fights (like the front in a real war), but as every chunk that's loaded is the front of a war (since MC cannot distinguish between the 4 wind directions when it comes to conquered terrain, e.g. as you move west, the program cannot be stopped from loading in NPC's at the east edge of the chunk), it is not really conquest anymore, because the enemy can play guerilla warfare by attacking anywhere behind your lines. It could only be realistic if MC would know that you're at the edge of your conquered territory and that is where enemy NPC's would have a chance to conquer back territory, but unfortunately in Minecraft the only existing territory at any time are the loaded chunks and biomes. If your conquered territory spans 100 chunks and you want the NPC's to fight back at its edge, MC will still only consider the maximum possible chunks of 16 (in v1.7.10) to be valid for any territory conquered. The biomes are not a possibility either, as those are fixed. I had a suggestion on biome change some time back, but was answered that technically that is not possible.

      Theoretically it could be done by naming the "front" those chunks where the conquest points are below a certain value, indicating that the higher conquest points are the middle of your conquered territory and no enemies should spawn there, contrary to the borders of your territory. This would be really difficult to implement though, as you never have the same amount of conquest points in different chunks: as you move on, the number of enemies killed differs as you make the kills, so each chunk will have different values. Say, in the center of your conquered area you have 800 conquest points, but as you are expanding, at the "front" (e.g. close to an Orc camp or where you meet an invasion, if neutral land) you make enough kills to have 900 conquest points in that area. The system would then no longer consider it the border of your area as it has higher conquest points and wrongfully spawn enemies behind your lines, while not spawning any at its edge where the points are higher. To determine what are the edges of your conquered area becomes a near impossible task without complex algorithms, at least it seems to me that's the way it works.

      But I could be wrong and maybe MC can distinguish between chunks where your territory borders that of the enemy versus chunks where your territory borders your own territory. That would be great if it could be capitalized upon, it would make your idea feasible.

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    • TheWanderingRanger wrote:
       

      The only reason this might not have been added yet is how to cause enemy NPCs to hinder your ME conquest after the land you are conquering is secured

      The way I would picture it, is that once you have conquered a chunk (or sets of chunks to make it easier, probably a 16 chunk reach would be the best, to avoid having to kill enemies in every single chunk), as you move into a new chunk (or sets of chunks) the enemy NPC's would start spawning there are their usual rate. This way you will have constant resistance as you move along. ME is pretty big, having to conquer all land could take a really long time, so it's a good challenge in and by itself fo a solo player world.

      But I agree, I have no idea if and how this could be done technically :)

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    • BraveSold!3r wrote:
       
      Yes i agree with you. I offered a temporary solution to you :P

      I tried doing that when I first started playing the mod. I bannered all of the inner area of the Ring of Isengard. It took me ages, in addition to feeling like an architect by having to constantly measure the placing, not to waste blocks by overlaps :) It also used most of my collected gold and silver, that I had mined for a pretty long time. When I was done, I was stunned to see that the enemy kept spawning at the borders, then it was explained to me how bannering does not protect the edges. So I think I'll refrain from doing that in future :D

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    • This, we need to be able to adjust conquest decay rate.

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    • A FANDOM user
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